Rabbi attacked

[marcus_anglikiem]

strange that the young men called after him "Poland for Poles", then the guy
who attacked him had short curly black hair. What kind of Pole is that?
Surely not Polish.

[usenetposts]

marcus_anglikiem napisał:

> strange that the young men called after him "Poland for Poles", then the guy
> who attacked him had short curly black hair. What kind of Pole is that?
> Surely not Polish.

Some Aryan Hitler was, also.

Rabbi Michal Schudrich is a US citizen. If Poles wish Poland to be the place
for themselves, then perhaps they will not mind if the US puts off or delays
the introduction of visa free visits for Poles until this fellow is brought to
justice.

It is interesting that while B16 makes his way to Auschwitz to state his horror
at the workings of man's evil, someone else shows their approbation for that
same evil during the visit, and barely moments after the heightened police
presence in this city has been relaxed.

Rabbi Schudrich has stated that he sees only a coincidental link between the
Pope's visit and his assault, which is generous, but I would still like to hear
the official response by the Pope that one of his flock should have done this.
He ought to excommunicate that person, at least for a period until they have
changed their ways, and he ought, before he leaves the country, to pay Rabbi
Schudrich a personal visit. If I were the Pope and this happened during my
visit, I would want to avoid the appearance of underreaction.

[minimus]

You said nothing of value there Dave. Think it over once more. You are getting
carried away.

[nasza_maggie]

Well, you're not the Pope Dave....

And I disagree with your comments. I think you should learn the facts first....

[usenetposts]

nasza_maggie napisała:

> Well, you're not the Pope Dave....

I'm not. I'm saying what I would have done if I had been him.

But they picked from amongst the cardinals, and I wasn't a cardinal either.

>
> And I disagree with your comments. I think you should learn the facts
first....

Which of my comments don't you agree with? Do you think it's OK to say "Polska
dla Polakow" to the Chief Rabbi, for instance?

[nasza_maggie]

I think whoever did it was an idiot. As the rabbi is an American Pole.
So he was stating the obvious.

[usenetposts]

minimus napisał:

> You said nothing of value there Dave. Think it over once more. You are
getting
> carried away.

I see. So standing up for the Chief Rabbi, who was attacked, is "of no value".

Are you sure you were born in the right half of the twentieth century?

[ja_karola]

usenetposts napisał:

> (...), and he ought, before he leaves the country, to pay Rabbi
> Schudrich a personal visit. If I were the Pope and this happened during my
> visit, I would want to avoid the appearance of underreaction.

He didn't have to. Rabbi Schudrich was present at the same ceremony in
Aushwitz-Birkenau at which both of them spoke... btw, very moving speeches. I
don't think that I either B16 nor Rabbi Schudrich made a big deal out of an
isolated case of a hard core bigot! If JP2 could genuinely forgive a man who
almost killed him, I think Rabbi Schudrich won't find it difficult to dismiss a
case of bigotry, which is present all over the world. After all, the entire
nation of Turkey was not suddenly blamed for the crime of Ali Agca. I come
across antisemitism all the time and I dismissed it as an exaggeration until my
Jewish friends opened my eyes to it. Poland, of all countries, is probably the
least antisemitic as not many nations would sacrifice so much during WWII.

I smell subjectivity Dave. Why such contempt for Catholicism? Did Henry VIII
split off for doctrinal reasons or did Catherine d'Aragon and politics have
something to do with it?

[varsovian]

ja_karola napisała:


>
> I smell subjectivity Dave. Why such contempt for Catholicism? Did Henry
VIII
> split off for doctrinal reasons or did Catherine d'Aragon and politics have
> something to do with it?

The then Pope would have loved to grant Henry a divorce, but politics in the
utterly debased christian world of the time prevented it. The various popes
over the years had made a laughing stock of themselves and remained in their
own way more or less vaguely ridiculous until JP II came along and actually
tried to do things.

[usenetposts]

ja_karola napisała:

> usenetposts napisał:
>
> > (...), and he ought, before he leaves the country, to pay Rabbi
> > Schudrich a personal visit. If I were the Pope and this happened during m
> y
> > visit, I would want to avoid the appearance of underreaction.
>
> He didn't have to. Rabbi Schudrich was present at the same ceremony in
> Aushwitz-Birkenau at which both of them spoke... btw, very moving speeches. I
> don't think that I either B16 nor Rabbi Schudrich made a big deal out of an
> isolated case of a hard core bigot! If JP2 could genuinely forgive a man who
> almost killed him, I think Rabbi Schudrich won't find it difficult to dismiss
a
>
> case of bigotry, which is present all over the world. After all, the entire
> nation of Turkey was not suddenly blamed for the crime of Ali Agca. I come
> across antisemitism all the time and I dismissed it as an exaggeration until
my
>
> Jewish friends opened my eyes to it. Poland, of all countries, is probably the
>
> least antisemitic as not many nations would sacrifice so much during WWII.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The amount of antisemitism in existence in the
population per actual Jew present is probably higher here than anywhere else in
history.

>
> I smell subjectivity Dave. Why such contempt for Catholicism? Did Henry VIII
> split off for doctrinal reasons or did Catherine d'Aragon and politics have
> something to do with it?

If someone says "Polska dla Polakow" to a Jew, then it infers that to be a Pole
you cannot be a Jew. Since you can be a British Jew or a Dutch Jew or an
American Jew but not a proper Pole as a Jew, it infers that Polish nationhood
is somehow linked to a particular religion.

Do you suppose there is a single Protestant country that behaves that way?

And kindly explain what Henry VIII has to do with me. He is not, and never has
been, a non-conformist Protestant. It is a question that you need to ask the
Anglicans, and let me tell you that I have more time for Roman Catholicism than
I do for most of the Anglican Church.

[nasza_maggie]

usenetposts napisał:



And where are the stats to prove that, then? ;PPPPP You went out and did a
survey???


>
> >
> > I smell subjectivity Dave. Why such contempt for Catholicism? Did Henry V
> III
> > split off for doctrinal reasons or did Catherine d'Aragon and politics ha
> ve
> > something to do with it?
>
> If someone says "Polska dla Polakow" to a Jew, then it infers that to be a
Pole
>
> you cannot be a Jew. Since you can be a British Jew or a Dutch Jew or an
> American Jew but not a proper Pole as a Jew, it infers that Polish nationhood
> is somehow linked to a particular religion.

Anyone can say that, the only way to prove they are actually a Pole is to see
their passport..and any person of any nation can say that. I can say wolna
Ukraina or Wolna Białoruś and I dont have to be Ukrainian or Belarussian.

I remember the incident in Belgium (?) where it turned out the boy/man was a
Roma and not a Pole although he lived in Poland.

>
> Do you suppose there is a single Protestant country that behaves that way?
oh here we go again....................



>
> And kindly explain what Henry VIII has to do with me.

Well he started it


He is not, and never has
> been, a non-conformist Protestant. It is a question that you need to ask the
> Anglicans, and let me tell you that I have more time for Roman Catholicism
than
>
> I do for most of the Anglican Church.

heh Good on you...
But why keep dividing people into categories in terms of their faith.
Would you not be as greatful or as helpful to anyone, who gave you the time of
day, helped you, your wife, your kids, or family, no matter what what their
faith?
Or would you ask them - 'erm sorry, I know you helped me out of a (ie) car
crash, but what relegious beliefs do you have? becasue if you are not A,B, or C
I can't be as greatful to you as I would be to a protestant etc."

[usenetposts]

nasza_maggie napisała:

> usenetposts napisał:
>
>
>
> And where are the stats to prove that, then? ;PPPPP You went out and did a
> survey???

You've not cited correctly, and when you do so, then I shall respond to this.

>
> >
> > >
> > > I smell subjectivity Dave. Why such contempt for Catholicism? Did H
> enry V
> > III
> > > split off for doctrinal reasons or did Catherine d'Aragon and polit
> ics ha
> > ve
> > > something to do with it?
> >
> > If someone says "Polska dla Polakow" to a Jew, then it infers that to be
> a
> Pole
> >
> > you cannot be a Jew. Since you can be a British Jew or a Dutch Jew or an
> > American Jew but not a proper Pole as a Jew, it infers that Polish nation
> hood
> > is somehow linked to a particular religion.
>
> Anyone can say that, the only way to prove they are actually a Pole is to see
> their passport..and any person of any nation can say that. I can say wolna
> Ukraina or Wolna Białoruś and I dont have to be Ukrainian or Belarussian.

So it's ok to go up to the Chief Rabbi and say "Polska dla Polaków"?

>
> I remember the incident in Belgium (?) where it turned out the boy/man was a
> Roma and not a Pole although he lived in Poland.
>

Did he have a Polish passport or not?

You just said that you have to have a Polish passport to be Polish.

Do you suppose the arsehole had a Roma passport?

> >
> > Do you suppose there is a single Protestant country that behaves that way
> ?
> oh here we go again....................

Just answer the question.

> >
> > And kindly explain what Henry VIII has to do with me.
>
> Well he started it

I was not aware that he was the first to read the Bible. From what I read of
Reformation History he had no truck with Tyndale's translation until he found
that it was grist to his later mill.

>
>
> He is not, and never has
> > been, a non-conformist Protestant. It is a question that you need to ask
> the
> > Anglicans, and let me tell you that I have more time for Roman Catholicis
> m
> than
> >
> > I do for most of the Anglican Church.
>
> heh Good on you...
> But why keep dividing people into categories in terms of their faith.

Because faith is IMPORTANT, and also a matter of FREE WILL.

Your Pope said to you "trzymajcie mocnie w wierze". I suggest you take his
advice.

> Would you not be as greatful or as helpful to anyone, who gave you the time
of
> day, helped you, your wife, your kids, or family, no matter what what their
> faith?
> Or would you ask them - 'erm sorry, I know you helped me out of a (ie) car
> crash, but what relegious beliefs do you have? becasue if you are not A,B, or
C
>
> I can't be as greatful to you as I would be to a protestant etc."
>

Of course not.

I am as aware as you are of the tale of the Good Samaritan, which, among
numerous other lessons it contains, lets us expect that we can as easily expect
a good deed from someone whose beliefs are anathema to us. That is not to say
that what we believe is not important, but that handsomeis as handsome does.
The one that takes pity is the neighbour, and we are to go and do likewise.

At the moment my pity is for the Chief Rabbi, and I don't agree with his Talmud
either.

I cannot go to his assistance as I was not put there in the right time at the
right place. I hope that God will grant me the wisdom, the alertness and the
guts to react properly when I am put in the right place at the right time.

It's "grateful" by the way.

[ianek70]

usenetposts napisał:

> I wouldn't be so sure of that. The amount of antisemitism in existence in the
> population per actual Jew present is probably higher here than anywhere else
in
>
> history.

Maybe, but antisemitism without Jews is just knee-jerk bigotry, it's the
pathetic pseudo-shocking statements of sad little arseholes who would like to
be racists, but who have nobody to hate.
Writing "White Power" on a wall in London or Paris is stupid, mindless racism,
but the same words on a wall in Białystok or Sosnowiec are completely risk-
free, the sad pointless conformism of some fuckwit whose only achievement in
life is that his hair or skin is the same colour as everybody else's.

There are more Jews in Scotland than in Poland, and in the dark days of
thatcherism 2 of them were members of that smallest and most despised of
minorities - Tory MPs.
I don't think I ever heard the names Rifkind or Forsyth mentioned without the
epithets "bastard", "f***er", "c***" or "wanker", or the
adjectives "dirty", "fascist" or "evil".
But it was always "that dirty Tory bastirt" or "thae evil thatcherist c***s", I
never heard anything antisemitic about these hate-figures, nobody cared who
their grandparents were.
But that doesn't mean the Tory-haters (who after all form over 90% of Scots
society) were all non-racists, a lot of them are/were bigotted against
Sassenachs, Teuchters or Catholics.

If the antisemitic cretins in Poland suddenly forgot about Jews, they'd find
someone else to curse.
It's human nature - people who need to hate will always find someone to hate.

[sobieski010]

As concerns Protestants and antisemetism, protestants do not have innocent souls.
The Deutsche Reichskirche with Bishop Mueller being a good example of viciously
antisemitic behave. And this nice protestant Heinrich Himmler?
And the good WASP USA did it damn best to keep all Jewish refugees out during
the war.

[usenetposts]

sobieski010 napisał:

> As concerns Protestants and antisemetism, protestants do not have innocent
soul
> s.
> The Deutsche Reichskirche with Bishop Mueller being a good example of
viciously
> antisemitic behave. And this nice protestant Heinrich Himmler?
> And the good WASP USA did it damn best to keep all Jewish refugees out during
> the war.

I never wished to suggest that Protestants did. One of the problems that
Protestantism has always had is that it is very varied, and parts of it can
more easily get out of kilter with the truth. I already said I preferred the RC
to half of the Anglican Church, and I can add that the greater support of
Hitler in the Reichstag elections was in Protestant areas, as I discovered to
my shock when researching that once, and not only were Lutherans no better and
sometimes worse than Catholics in the oppression of Jews, (see Luther's
atrocious tract "On the Jews and their Lies"), but also Protestants had a worse
record in history than catholics when it came to the so called witch-burnings,
(in the main they were not burned, and in the main they were not witches
anyway) and that not only in Europe, but in early America also, for which you
can cite the Salem witch trials.

I am not saying that Protestants have been able to keep their nose clean - if
they stop reforming and just sit on their laurels then they decay faster than
the tradition based churches such as the Orthodox or the Catholic ones do!

This is one of the weaknesses of Protestantism, I have to admit it.

Polska dla Polaków

[ianek70]

Polska tylko dla Polaków, czy dla Polaków tylko Polska?

Innymi słowy, should a few thousand Ukrainian builders, Vietnamese waiters,
Russian gangsters, assorted language teachers, a handful of accountants and
chefs, that rabbi and John Porter be kicked out of Poland, or should millions
of Poles be repatriated from abroad?
It would be fairer and more logical if they did both, but that wouldn't help
Poland.

[ja_karola]

Dear all,
given the 6 hour difference and my hectic schedule preventing me from
responding while at work, kindly bare with me in my attempt to reply....

In response to Usenetpost’s reply to my post :

> I wouldn't be so sure of that. The amount of antisemitism in existence in the
population per actual Jew
>present is probably higher here than anywhere else in history.

In the XIX century, Poland had the highest concentration of Jews. 4/5 of all
Jews in the world lived in Poland before the massive exodus to the USA reached
its zenith. Surely there must have been a reason for that. You cannot talk of
Polish history without mentioning the Jews as the two nations lived side by
side in symbiosis. The Catholic Church blaming them for the death of Jesus did
not help their cause for sure, but the only ones prone to believe that bullshit
were and still are today the ignorant masses. I think it’s pretty safe to say
that anti-Semitism exists everywhere to a similar degree. Poland may not have
a big Jewish population thanks to the Nazis and then Communists, but I could
bet that it would be difficult for you to come by a native of any western
country without some sort of prejudice against the Jews.

>If someone says "Polska dla Polakow" to a Jew, then it infers that to be a
Pole
>you cannot be a Jew. Since you can be a British Jew or a Dutch Jew or an
>American Jew but not a proper Pole as a Jew, it infers that Polish nationhood
>is somehow linked to a particular religion.

I disagree. You’re Polish if you feel Polish… (Tuwim being the best example).
Just as you’re Canadian if you feel Canadian; or a citizen of the world if you
so wish to be called. But by the same token, what about the non Jews living
in Israel? I’ve met several (in mixed marriages) who came to Canada because of
the discrimination they faced there and the 2nd degree citizen status they were
assigned. Also, many Jews living in N.A. for generations, if asked what
nationality they are will say “Jewish” and not say American…. Religion/national
lines quite blurry I would say.

> Do you suppose there is a single Protestant country that behaves that way?

Ehhhmmm…… Germany?

>And kindly explain what Henry VIII has to do with me. He is not, and never has
>been, a non-conformist Protestant. It is a question that you need to ask the
>Anglicans, and let me tell you that I have more time for Roman Catholicism
than I do for most of the Anglican Church.

OK, I did not imply Henry VIII = Uncle Dave, and do apologize if you took it as
a personal attack. Any religious institution is just that …an institution
bound to be heavily influenced by politics and human weaknesses. It’s just
human nature.

In your response to nasza_maggie’s post, you said:
nasza_maggie:
> heh Good on you... But why keep dividing people into categories in terms of
>their faith.

Usenetpost:
>Because faith is IMPORTANT, and also a matter of FREE WILL. Your Pope said to
>you "trzymajcie mocno w wierze". I suggest you take his advice.

Exactly; free will and it’s personal! Who cares if you go to church, or not,
whether you’re a catholic, protestant or Orthodox, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or
Buddhist…. What matters is if you’re trying your best to choose good above all
else. Funny how 21 centuries have passed and the same arguments still occupy
people’s minds and time. People can be classified as thos who make good or bad
choices and we can only hope for good to prevail.

In response to Ianek70:
>If the antisemitic cretins in Poland suddenly forgot about Jews, they'd find
>someone else to curse. It's human nature - people who need to hate will always
>find someone to hate.

Exactly. It all comes down to those who feel much more than they think...

Cheers,
K.

[usenetposts]

ja_karola napisała:

> Dear all,
> given the 6 hour difference and my hectic schedule preventing me from
> responding while at work, kindly bare with me in my attempt to reply....
>
> In response to Usenetpost’s reply to my post :
>
> > I wouldn't be so sure of that. The amount of antisemitism in existence in
> the
> population per actual Jew
> >present is probably higher here than anywhere else in history.
>
> In the XIX century, Poland had the highest concentration of Jews. 4/5 of all
> Jews in the world lived in Poland before the massive exodus to the USA
reached
> its zenith. Surely there must have been a reason for that.

Sure there was, and the reason I understand is that Poland was the most
tolerant society at that time, which is not saying much, but kudos to Poland
for that anyway.

>You cannot talk of
>
> Polish history without mentioning the Jews as the two nations lived side by
> side in symbiosis. The Catholic Church blaming them for the death of Jesus did
> not help their cause for sure, but the only ones prone to believe that
bullshit
> were and still are today the ignorant masses. I think it’s pretty safe to
> say
> that anti-Semitism exists everywhere to a similar degree. Poland may not have
> a big Jewish population thanks to the Nazis and then Communists, but I could
> bet that it would be difficult for you to come by a native of any western
> country without some sort of prejudice against the Jews.
>

The ignorant masses were, unfortunately, also the ones who carried out Hitler's
bidding. So one cannot dismiss them as harmless.

The thing about Poland is that because of the lack of Jews, there is no-one to
object when someone starts making anti-semitic comments that would get you
scorned and maybe sacked in the west of Europe.

In the West of Europe, you do not see anti-semitic graffiti on the walls going
unpainted over year in, year out.

And this is loaded on to a population of Jews which is measured in thousands,
not tens of thousands.

That is why I do not think that any other country, at least not major country,
has a level of antisemitism per Jew present anything like Poland. I did not say
that Poland is "the most anti-semitic country". Sharon recently warned that
France was deserving that accolade, and who am I to argue with Sharon?

> >If someone says "Polska dla Polakow" to a Jew, then it infers that to be a
>
> Pole
> >you cannot be a Jew. Since you can be a British Jew or a Dutch Jew or an
> >American Jew but not a proper Pole as a Jew, it infers that Polish nationh
> ood
> >is somehow linked to a particular religion.
>
> I disagree. You’re Polish if you feel Polish… (Tuwim being the bes
> t example).

That's how it SHOULD BE. But let me give you an example of how it ACTUALLY IS,
taken from Uncle Davey's casebook:

A friend of mine, who shall remain nameless, not least because his surname is
shared with one of the best known politicians in this country, and that person
happens to be his father, had an interesting enlightenment about 3 years ago.

He knew that his father's side had been Jewish - he knew the history of the
family name and how it had been changed from something ending in Stein to sound
more Polish. Nevertheless, he had been brought up, a little bit like the Daniel
Deronda of literature, believing that his mother was a Catholic Pole, the stock
of Catholic Poles stretching back as far as the eye of history can see.

And then he went and visited his Uncle. An Uncle he had never visited before.
An Uncle on his mother's side, and a direct blood relation. On the wall were
pictures showing all his mother's side of the family. A whole load of people he
had barely heard about.

"Uncle, how come my mother's mother's parents are dressed in Chasidic garments
and have distinctly Semitic features?". And then Uncle has to make like Hagrid
in the beginning of Harry Potter's first book and say "You mean you weren't
told?"

The guy had such a shock when he realised he was Jewish. He spoke to me and
said "All my life I have believed I was Polish, and now it turns out I am
Jewish". So obviously I told him, and in due course he came to see, that he was
as much Polish as he ever was, that Polish doesn't mean "Catholic". But he had
somehow imbibed that idea, and that idea is certainly at large in this country.

> Just as you’re Canadian if you feel Canadian;

Don't compare it. Canadiand and Americans are new peoples, made up of a
composite of people who all used to be something else, as even the Native
Americans did not call themselves "Canadians" or "Americans".

>or a citizen of the world i
> f you
> so wish to be called.

There is no world citizenship, to the best of my knowledge. The closest we have
available is EU citizenship. The first words on my passport and my Polish
Residence card are "European Union". I don't have this for "The Terran
Federation", as it has not yet opened its doors and put up the little ticket
machines for a place in the passport queue.

I might set up a website issuing world passports, actually, as I myself have as
much authority to do that as anyone else has. They could be a snip at 30 EUR a
go.

> But by the same token, what about the non Jews living
> in Israel? I’ve met several (in mixed marriages) who came to Canada beca
> use of
> the discrimination they faced there and the 2nd degree citizen status they
were
>
> assigned. Also, many Jews living in N.A. for generations, if asked what
> nationality they are will say “Jewish” and not say American….

I think you are talking about very extreme cases. Most North American Jews will
identify themselves as Americans.

> Religion/national
> lines quite blurry I would say.
>
> > Do you suppose there is a single Protestant country that behaves that way
> ?
>
> Ehhhmmm…… Germany?
>

Bzzzt. Wrong answer. Germany is half and half.

> >And kindly explain what Henry VIII has to do with me. He is not, and never
> has
> >been, a non-conformist Protestant. It is a question that you need to ask t
> he
> >Anglicans, and let me tell you that I have more time for Roman Catholicism
>
> than I do for most of the Anglican Church.
>
> OK, I did not imply Henry VIII = Uncle Dave, and do apologize if you took it
as
>
> a personal attack. Any religious institution is just that …an institutio
> n
> bound to be heavily influenced by politics and human weaknesses. It’s ju
> st
> human nature.
>
> In your response to nasza_maggie’s post, you said:
> nasza_maggie:
> > heh Good on you... But why keep dividing people into categories in terms
> of
> >their faith.
>
> Usenetpost:
> >Because faith is IMPORTANT, and also a matter of FREE WILL. Your Pope sai
> d to
> >you "trzymajcie mocno w wierze". I suggest you take his advice.
>
> Exactly; free will and it’s personal!

Did I say it wasn't personal?

Have I asked a single person here to discuss religion who didn't themselves
start off the topic?

Be fair, now.


> Who cares if you go to church, or
> not,
> whether you’re a catholic, protestant or Orthodox, Christian, Jewish, Mus
> lim or
> Buddhist…. What matters is if you’re trying your best to choose goo
> d above all
> else.

That's only one interpretation of what religion is, and not on