El pais thinks Poland sucks

[usenetposts]

I was reading today's Bitchpospolita, and on the right hand column on the
first page there is an article that El Pais, or at least one of its
columnists Pilar Rahola, who sounds a little bit like a fashionable menu item
in a fusion cuisine restaurant, was slagging Poland off for being a right
wing, reactionary and anti-semitic country.

Did anyone read about that?

She said that Poland was the only country to commit pogroms on holocaust
survivors, and also blames Poland for consenting to the carrying out of most
of the holocaust on its soil.

She said that the anti-semitism came from the Christian religion.

I would just have the following few comments:

1. Yes, there are too many people with anti-semitic views in Poland still, or
maybe it just appears that way as this is a country where it is still ok to
express non PC views, rather than bottle them up in silence, until there is a
total riot, as in the West.

2. That having been said, a neighbourhood of thugs in one or two rural
communities does not a nation make. Poland as a whole has apologised for the
events in Kielce and Jedwabne, and Israel does not remain at odds with Poland
over these issues. When Sharon warned against blossoming anti-Semitism in
Europe, he warned against France in particular, and against the Muslim
religion, not the Christian one.

3. The writer is a communist, and has it in for Poland not because of the
Jews, whom she has all deep and snugly in her arse, but because of all
countries Poland saw off the communist menace.

4. It transpires that she hasn't even been here. maybe we could have a
competition writing articles about the bad sides of parts of Spain we have
never visited, in honour of this anti-Polish junkalist moronette?

[hardenfelt]

I think it is a good article. It may be slightly provoking, but she has done
her homework, even if she hasn’t been to Poland. The political climate in
Poland is now that extreme that we need provocations. Poland is about to become
a Christian Iran or Afghanistan. More articles like this in respected
international papers might open the eyes of some people. Last time it was
Economist, this time El Pais, neither of these publications are potato-papers.

The article is here:
Las noticias se sobreponen como si fueran una maldición, algún tipo de magia
negra que la historia perpetra contra ese viejo país, desde hace décadas. Lo
cierto es que Polonia, a pesar de sus muchas grandezas, ha protagonizado
algunas de las miserias más terribles de la historia reciente, y ahí están, en
el agujero negro del recuerdo, sus campos de exterminio. Es cierto que fueron
una responsabilidad alemana, que Polonia fue un país ocupado, y que muchos
resistentes polacos lucharon contra los nazis (sin olvidar que los nazis
tuvieron más dificultades para destruir la resistencia del gueto de Varsovia
que para ocupar Polonia). Pero también lo es que en Polonia se unificaron las
dos corrientes de la maldad antisemita: la nazi y la de base cristiana. Alguien
escribió que Polonia inventó el odio a los judíos, incluso antes de tener
judíos, y de hecho, es el único país del mundo que llevó a cabo un pogromo
contra los pocos supervivientes del Holocausto, cuando intentaron volver a sus
casas. En Uruguay conocí a una mujer que había sobrevivido a la Shoá y después
al pogromo de Kielce, en 1946, donde murieron 42 judíos sólo porque se difundió
el rumor de que estaban usando la sangre de niños cristianos para rituales. Los
pocos que quedaron formaron parte de la Brihah, la migración masiva de cientos
de miles de judíos que habían sobrevivido a los campos, pero temieron no
sobrevivir al odio polaco, un odio que no había desaparecido después del
exterminio de seis millones de judíos europeos. Vicenç Villatoro siempre
explica un chiste, para ilustrar la normalidad del antisemitismo polaco: "El
Gobierno de Polonia publica un bando en el que anuncia la expulsión de todos
los judíos y todos los ciclistas de su país. Dos polacos leen el bando, y uno
le pregunta al otro: '¿Por qué los ciclistas?". Los expertos aseguran que, a
pesar de haber quedado limpios de judíos, los polacos continúan siendo los más
antisemitas de Europa. Un antisemitismo que se forjó en la teoría del deicismo
cristiano, y que durante siglos convirtió a los judíos -a pesar de su ingente
papel en el ámbito de las ciencias y las letras- en un pueblo execrado,
perseguido cual rata de cloaca y masacrado. Sin ninguna duda, Polonia es clave
en la maldad que culminó con el extermino de dos tercios de la población judía
europea.
Ahora llegan noticias de ese país, que nuevamente hablan de persecuciones,
sospechas generalizadas y una influencia de la Iglesia católica que va mucho
más allá de la espiritualidad, y ahonda en la pésima tradición del
fundamentalismo religioso. Parece evidente que, después de su etapa comunista,
Polonia está viviendo una euforia religiosa que liga, lógicamente, con el papel
que la Iglesia tuvo en la resistencia anticomunista, con Wojtyla entre
muchísimos otros. Pero hay una diferencia muy sustancial entre regresar a
antiguos dogmas religiosos (algo parecido ocurre en los territorios ex
comunistas de fe ortodoxa) y convertir ese dogma en un efectivo ariete contra
los derechos fundamentales. En este sentido, la Polonia actual, gobernada por
esa sin par pareja de hermanos, envía serias alarmas al mundo libre. La última,
la que ha aventurado el ministro Marek Orzechowski insinuando que los maestros
de orientación homosexual no podrán educar a los niños polacos. En una
matización posterior, ha asegurado que sólo serán excluidos los que "hagan
promoción de su homosexualidad", sin explicar muy bien qué significa dicha
promoción. Por supuesto, anuncia que la apología o propaganda de la
homosexualidad será castigada por ley. Todo ello, la misma semana en que
700.000 polacos deberán confesar si colaboraron con el régimen comunista. Es
decir, en una sola semanita -¡vaya semanita!-, un país miembro de la Unión
Europea hace alarde de homofobia, plantea leyes que recortan derechos
fundamentales, y pone bajo sospecha a miles de ciudadanos. Y todo ello sin que
los países colegas de la Unión se hayan despeinado ni un solo pelo.
La reflexión es doble. Respecto a Polonia, constatar las muchas enfermedades
endémicas que castigan severamente la buena salud democrática de ese país. Como
resulta evidente, Polonia ha entrado en Europa, pero aún no ha hecho los
deberes, seriamente, sobre las obligaciones democráticas que ello significa. Es
decir, sólo ha entrado en la Europa económica, sin mostrar indicios de ser
exigente con la Europa de los derechos. La otra reflexión, sobre esa Unión
Europea que se muestra algo eficaz en términos económicos, que incluso berrea
un poco cuando le pisan algún callo, pero que en realidad naufraga sonoramente
cada vez que tiene que mostrar dureza con la violación que sufren los derechos
humanos en tantas zonas del mundo. Ya no hablo del silencio malvado que Europa
proyecta sobre las tragedias africanas y sus muchas guerras, algunas nutridas
por armas europeas. Europa, por ejemplo, no existe en la denuncia de Darfur.
Tampoco digo nada del síndrome chamberliano que padece respecto al conflicto
con Irán, o a su relativismo cómplice cuando hay que denunciar las maldades del
fundamentalismo islámico. Europa sólo chilla cuando tiene que chillar contra
los yanquis. Pero los otros gritos se le ahogan en las gargantas de los muchos
intereses que quiere proteger, y en esas gargantas, los derechos humanos no
existen. Sin embargo, lo que ya sería el colmo de la hipocresía y,
consecuentemente, de la maldad política es que permitiéramos que un miembro de
la Unión persiguiera a los ciudadanos homosexuales o planteara persecuciones
masivas, y no tuviera ninguna consecuencia. ¿Con qué cara debatiremos los
derechos democráticos con la Turquía islámica, si permitimos vulnerarlos
severamente con la Polonia católica?
www.pilarrahola.com

[usenetposts]

hardenfelt napisał:

> I think it is a good article. It may be slightly provoking, but she has done
> her homework, even if she hasn’t been to Poland. The political climate in
>
> Poland is now that extreme that we need provocations. Poland is about to
become
>
> a Christian Iran or Afghanistan. More articles like this in respected
> international papers might open the eyes of some people. Last time it was
> Economist, this time El Pais, neither of these publications are potato-papers.

Thanks for reposting the article. It is in fact less biased than the account I
read of it, which seemed to report her placing the bulk of blame on Poland for
the Shoah, and not on Germany, whereas she clearly acknowledges the Germans
occupied the country. Nevertheless, it still goes too far - I find it totally
disjointed the way she jumps from the war and the Warsaw Resistance to Kielce's
post war pogrom a few lines later.

I still don't see a balanced view of Poland in this article. She runs the mouth
about homophobia, but in fact there is no evidence that homosexual people have
a lower quality of life here than in any other country, and if they do, they ar
of course free to leave and go to other parts of the EU that they feel more
nice for them, same as thanks to Poland heteroes can come to this part of the
EU which is nice for us.

[babiana]

usenetposts napisał:

>
> I still don't see a balanced view of Poland in this article. She runs the mouth
>
> about homophobia, but in fact there is no evidence that homosexual people have
> a lower quality of life here than in any other country, and if they do, they ar
>
> of course free to leave and go to other parts of the EU that they feel more
> nice for them, same as thanks to Poland heteroes can come to this part of the
> EU which is nice for us.

In some EU countries it is even forbidden for children in hospital to talk or
read about mommy and daddy, because this allegedly violates gay rights!!!
Homosexual propaganda must be limited so children will have the correct view of
the family.
>

[kirovsk]

babiana napisała:

> In some EU countries it is even forbidden for children in hospital to talk or
> read about mommy and daddy, because this allegedly violates gay rights!!!
> Homosexual propaganda must be limited so children will have the correct view o
> f
> the family.

you'd better read less right-wing propaganda

[babiana]

kirovsk napisał:

> you'd better read less right-wing propaganda

I'm just watching actual footage of teachers indoctrinating children that
homosexuality is "healthy education."
This is what is actually going on in more and more elementary schools across
America.
www.massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html

[portulaco]

Long time no see!

Hello everybody.

About "El Pais de los Opus Dei”...

Some Spanish journalists should remember some article written the day Hitler allegedly committed suicide... they said openly about the death of the dictator:

“Adolph Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. Is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. Over his mortal remains stand his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of victory”... O_O

Helas! Who was having benefits with the Jewish holocaust the gold and properties belonging to them? The rich European families and they're blood lines, the Freemasons, the Vatican and the Jesuits.

The 20th century was indeed a good business to certain people.

[minimus]

I haven't read it, but from what you say she has a grudge against Poland. In
this case I can't think of anyone better than Waldo to write to her a letter
explaining how wrong she is.

[marcus_anglikiem]

well (the following is likely to cause offence IF YOU TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. SO
DON'T.) i thought Spain was a place that they robbed off the Muslims with a
campaign of ethnic cleansing, was run by a Fascist dictatorship until the EU
dragged it out of 3rd world status in the '70s with some nice new roads and
subsidies for the peasants

[ianek70]

Ha! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[varsovian]

How's yer codpiece?

[silling]

One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.

[usenetposts]

marcus_anglikiem napisał:

> well (the following is likely to cause offence IF YOU TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. SO
> DON'T.) i thought Spain was a place that they robbed off the Muslims with a
> campaign of ethnic cleansing, was run by a Fascist dictatorship until the EU
> dragged it out of 3rd world status in the '70s with some nice new roads and
> subsidies for the peasants

Are you sure about the 70s?

I thought it was later than that.

[marcus_anglikiem]

usenetposts napisał:

> Are you sure about the 70s?
>
> I thought it was later than that.

hmm, yeah, you may be right; it may have been the '80s by then.

[marcus_anglikiem]

*Dave, it was 1986.

in any case , Spain has an education system slated in OECD reports as one of
the worst in Western Europe (i think that explains the quality of journalism)

[usenetposts]

marcus_anglikiem napisał:

> *Dave, it was 1986.
>
> in any case , Spain has an education system slated in OECD reports as one of
> the worst in Western Europe (i think that explains the quality of journalism)

I like Spain, but in many ways it seems to be a nation that has lost its soul.
I sometimes wonder whether Franco wouldn't be a better alternative to what they
have now.

[marcus_anglikiem]

i think a lot of places have lost their souls. Prague springs to mind
immediately . Ever been ?

[usenetposts]

marcus_anglikiem napisał:

> i think a lot of places have lost their souls. Prague springs to mind
> immediately . Ever been ?

I have. It's not a bad place per se, but it is all sold out to the cheap end of
the tourist market.

I've also noticed that it's very easy to get completely lost driving through
there if you stray off the motorway by-pass.

Once you do that, the place seems to go on forever, with scrappy old suburbs
popping up long after you expect the end of it.

That jewish ... woman

[brookie]

Wouldn't it all be easier if Jews could stick to their own country somewhere?
And blame somebody else? I was up to Poles's state of heart to protect jews as
much as they could, and they did their best. Still unsatisfied jews turned the
wheel against Poles. Hello! Demand your rights on your own soil! And be
greatfull being tolerated on somebody elses!
Think the unthinkable

[gosiash]

brookie napisała:

> Wouldn't it all be easier if Jews could stick to their own country somewhere?

So maybe we should keep Catholics in Rome, Anglicans in England and so on...
Judaism is a religion not a nationality but people cannot understand that for
some reason.

[usenetposts]

gosiash napisała:

> brookie napisała:
>
> > Wouldn't it all be easier if Jews could stick to their own country somewh
> ere?
>
> So maybe we should keep Catholics in Rome, Anglicans in England and so on...
> Judaism is a religion not a nationality but people cannot understand that for
> some reason.

Anti-semitism, most probably.

The most remarkable case was when a friend of mine discovered he was Jewish and
said he had pretty much a crisis of identity, as he had believed always that he
was Polish.

If even Polish people, when they discover their family secret, believe they are
no longer Polish, then it's not surprising that others cannot grasp it either.
The Jews I went to school with were not only fully British, but totally English
too, in the way a British Indian hindu would find it much harder to be, and a
British Muslim would no doubt absolutely refuse to be.

[stevepatrick]

usenetposts - you really do have a problem with muslims don't you? One of my
ex-housemates and a good friend is a muslim (although I never noticed him going
to a mosque) and he was certainly as English as you could wish for. (Well, come
to think of it, would you wish for it?) He liked the same curry and fish and
chips as did the rest of us. He speaks with a Lancashire accent and likes
arguing about music and football He wasn't of Pakistani descent, but
Bangladeshi, just as many other Anglo-muslims aren't. I might venture that
Bengalis are generally less arrogant and more open to other cultures than the
'Pakistanis' I have met, but maybe it would be better just to take individuals
on their merits. Just like not all Poles are ultra-Catholics and racists, as
this unfortunate El Pais journalist seems to portray them.

[babiana]

stevepatrick napisał:

> usenetposts - you really do have a problem with muslims don't you? One of my
> ex-housemates and a good friend is a muslim (although I never noticed him going
> to a mosque) and he was certainly as English as you could wish for. (Well, come
> to think of it, would you wish for it?) He liked the same curry and fish and
> chips as did the rest of us. He speaks with a Lancashire accent and likes
> arguing about music and football.

One swallow does not make a summer.

[stevepatrick]

"One swallow does not make a summer"

Aren't proverbs and idioms great? There's another one about not tarring them all
with the same brush. I am not sticking up for Islam in general, nor am I damning
all Muslims in general. Judge individuals on their merits and think about the
"con" in "neo-con"

[babiana]

stevepatrick napisał:

> "One swallow does not make a summer"
>
> Aren't proverbs and idioms great? There's another one about not tarring them al
> l
> with the same brush.

There is another one; one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel.
Read the latest news from Amsterdam.

For six nights running (as I write this; it may be more by the time you read
it), Moroccan youth in the Slotervaart neighborhood have burned cars, busted
windows, and brought mayhem to the streets. But unless you're one of those
people who follow these things closely, you may not have heard about it yet: the
events haven not received much play in the media outside Holland. The chaos
hasn't reached the level yet of the Paris riots in 2005; perhaps it just doesn't
seem important enough for foreign press to bother with.

But it is important, in part because it comes only days after a multicultural
festival in the Hague also ended in a riot, as 200 or more Moroccan youth threw
stones and other objects at policemen. Why? Because the time allotted for the
Moroccan band had ended and it was another ethnic group's turn to play.

In Amsterdam, the cause is something different altogether. On the morning of
October 14, 22-year-old Bilal Bajaka, a Dutch-Moroccan who lived in the area,
entered a local mosque and asked directions to the nearest police station. It
wasn't far.

At 11:30 a.m., Bajaka entered the police headquarters on the August Allebéplein,
leapt across the counter, grabbed a female police officer and stabbed her in the
chest. As she tried to free herself, he plunged his knife into her back,
perforating a lung. He then lunged at a male colleague, stabbing him in the
throat, shoulders, and back. As the two men wrestled, the wounded woman drew her
gun and fired. Seconds later, Bajaka lay dead on the police department floor.
worlddefensereview.com/esman103007.shtml

[usenetposts]

Steve, it's as much for the sake of people like him as for us that we need to
take a hard line with the hard-line moslems. Ask and see, maybe your friend
even would agree with me there, as many of the people from those places do.

[artremi]

Couldn't agree with you more. I worked with many Spaniards who were transplanted
to the U.S. I would always laugh about how angry they got when they were
mistaken for Mexicans or Latinos. They appeared to have a major inferiority complex.
I also went on the 800-km Camino to Santiago de Compostela. It's a religious
pilgrimage, but at least 50% of the Spanish pilgrims denied they are Christian.
They claimed to be "spiritual" or they they walked for sport. Apparently, being
Christian in Europe is something to be ashamed of.

usenetposts napisał:
> I like Spain, but in many ways it seems to be a nation that has lost its soul.

[kirovsk]

critisizing current polish policies is ok. but this article is anything but a
serious and unbiased political and historical analysis. it is just an emotional
manifesto of the author's blind hate towards poles as a nation, and, as such,
as good an example of intolerance towards other nations as polish antisemitism,
condemned so vehemently by pilar rahena. she knows some thoughts and opinions
she presents are absurd and nonsense aimed at nothing more but showing her hate
and inviting the reader to hate poles (like "poles invented antisemitism before
jews even came to poland"), so she puts "as somebody once said" before them
(thanks to it she can say it wasn´t me in case somebody notices it doesn´t make
sense or is a simple lie). no serious and self-respecting journalist does such
things.

to sum up, this lady, by writing this article, has lowered herself to the level
of polish haters, like wierzejski and co. now she is just like them: she too
already knows the pleasure of lashing out hate upon other nations, religions or
other sexual orientations. a sad character.

[lmblmb]

usenetposts napisał:

> [...]
> first page there is an article that El Pais, or at least one of its
> columnists Pilar Rahola,

It's not the first time.

> who sounds a little bit like a fashionable
> menu item in a fusion cuisine restaurant

That's a very mature comment.


> [...]
> She said that the anti-semitism came from the Christian religion.

Doesn't it?

> I would just have the following few comments:
>
> 1. Yes, there are too many people with anti-semitic views in Poland

Pardon me, in eastern Poland. I did not meet with antisemitism until I travelled
to Lublin etc.

> 2. That having been said, a neighbourhood of thugs in one or two
> rural communities [...]

Wrong. Białystok, Lublin or Tarnów aren't rural. Toruń isn't either.

> 3. The writer is a communist, and has it in for Poland not because
> of the Jews, whom she has all deep and snugly in her arse, but
> because of all countries Poland saw off the communist menace.

With all due respect to left-wing press (e.g. Wyborcza), El Pais is crap. So is
L'Humanité and their Italian counter-parts. They are simply propaganda tubes for
one type of political view. "Nasz Dziennik" is similar, but right-wing.

> 4. It transpires that she hasn't even been here. maybe we could
> have a competition writing articles about the bad sides of parts
> of Spain we have never visited, in honour of this anti-Polish
> junkalist moronette?

Let's start with ETA

[marcus_anglikiem]

maybe we could
> > have a competition writing articles about the bad sides of parts
> > of Spain we have never visited, in honour of this anti-Polish
> > junkalist moronette?

sounds fun, and there should be lots of material with all those
regions with their own identities and cultures and ways of
speaking... it's barely a nation at all is it?