Is Russia an enemy ?

[vladct]

I've never thought of the Poles as the enemies of Russia and I'm
sure I will not do. Reading the translated Polish newspaper articles I
found out that the opposite may be true for Poland: Polish people
tend to see Russia as an enemy or threat to their interests. I appreciate
the criticism of any policy because it helps to understand the strong
and weak points of our relationships. But the Polish media publish
articles that suggest that Russia is the enemy. (e.g. www.wprost.pl )

For the last decade Poland received very little attention in Russian
media. I can't recall anything that is close to the style and
unfriendly attitude of Polish mass media.

The questions are why do you think that Russian people are enemies;
what are the facts of the modern Russian-Polish relationships that require
you to believe in that ?

Thanks in advance
Vlad

Poland is a western country, it always has been

[waldek1610]

Vlad,
There has been many signs of Russia being in an open conflict with Poland.
Maybe you as a Russian living in this huge country can not see that as clearly
as we Poles do.
The is an animosity between out two countries that is fueled mainly by Russian
refusal to abandon its Soviet/Imperial style of treatment of it's neighbours.
The problem my friend is that Russia wants to believe that Poland's or
Ukraine's should be in Russian sphere of influence.What Russia also fails to
understand is that Poland has adopted western European orientation long before
Mowcow became Russia's capital. So next time Russia is talking to EU it is
talking to Poland not just Germany or France...

[stary.prochazka]

wympieu napisał:

> There is no conflict man, what conflict do you expect? There are many bitchy
> people in Poland [...] saying they were fucked by Russia in the
> last 50 yesrs during communism, but ther are in minority. I know that some
> atrocities were done by madman from Georgia and he killed much more Ukrainians
> and Russians than Poles. So between people there is no conflict. Yes, some
> newspapers try to create some conflicts, only because they try to sell more
> issues.But these are the same papers and they rarely write anything good about
> the East. But you know only the first part

Japan is western country and always was...

[mishuk]

as well as Australia, Southern Africa, HongKong and Greenland.
C'mon people, don't make my belly laugh :)

"West"limit-Poland's eastern border with Belarus

[waldek1610]

mishuk napisał:

> as well as Australia, Southern Africa, HongKong and Greenland.
> C'mon people, don't make my belly laugh :)

If you want to play "geography" imagine that "western countries" such as
Finalnd and Greece are acutally geograficaly lay more to the east than Poland.
Location does not matter that much, what counts its country's ideology and
Polands ideology was alignied with the west since Prince Mieszko made Poland
Roman Catolic.
Anyways Poland lays right next to Germany, and the "West" does not end on its
border.

[mishuk]

you miss the point, pal.
Despite the mentioned countries don't lie geographically to Europe, they still
share democratic values established in Europe.

Putin and his politics are the enemy, for sure,

[bolko_turan]

but not the Russians at all

[nonno1]

Have you ever seen in written or spoken that Russians are enemies of Poland or
Poles?
I do not believe.

We treat with awareness Russian governement, especially Mr Putin.
Why?
Because he (or the establishment) bases Russian identity on Soviet (stalinist)
tradidion. E.g. Russia refuse make available the results of enquire concerning
Katyn crime, under the pretext of secret. Secret after 60 years? What is
secret? The names of criminalists?
Mr Putin says the Baltic countries belonged legally to Soviet Union! It means
he consider legal the Hitler - Stalin (Ribentropp - Molotov) treaty, which was
against all the rules of international law.
There was a pity incident of beating Russian diplomats' children by Polish
hooligans. The incident is commented by the president of RF!
It's nothing else as blowing up anti-polish histery!

Instead of developing partner relations with its neighbours (Ukraine, Moldavia,
Georgia, Turkmenistan...) RF tries to estabish its 'zones of influence' and
puppies regimes (Yanukovich). It's simply a tray to reestablish Russian empire!
We were under domination of this empire since 1700 (Peter the Great), and it's
enough!
We would be very happy to have as neighbour democratic, rich and cultural
Russia. Russia which treats its neighbours as partners not as servants.
We'll never agree for imperialistic Russia.

[kontrkultura]

Hard to say, but there is no any secret that its all going wrong way. Some
people in Russia (mostly Putins` establishment) and in Poland (mosltly some
right polical clubs) would have certaint profits in their popularity and self
promotion when such conflicts between both countries appears.

Russia not, but Kacapia:)))/nt

[ignorant11]

[popachs]

Who starts to hostile actions towards Russian kids on the streets of Warsaw?
Poles... They want to be enemy of Russia!!! Russia has no allies at all! They
are desperately are looking for friends, not enemies! They always do... now
it's best time for Poland to become enemy of Russia.
Why?
Becuase most of Poles wish to Russia to get collapsed completely. Than,
Kaliningrad might become part of Poland. And who knows what Poland would gain
if they support marching American imperialism and Russia, eventually, collapse.
Ukraine might become under Poland influence, too.

That's why now Russian nationalism is growing rapidly. There are good reasons
for national rebirth of Russia. American beasts want to take whole world and
Poland is the effective tool in their hands. Thus, Russians will be ready to
stop America... and Poland too. And I beleive they will stop it forever.

Russian's are totaly brainwashed!

[waldek1610]

Popach, Reading what you wrote it amaises me how Russian's believe in
their "Special leading Role"....I think you been brainwashed by Russian
communist/nationalist ideology.
The difference between USA and Russia is that USA has a positive influence on
its allies. Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.

You want Poland and the rest of the World to "ally" and follow Russia? Why in
the World any country would want to do that. You only have to look how
Poland,Ukraine, Baltics became poor and underdeveloped, when those countries
were invaded and occupied by Russia after 1945. Putin reminds me of Hitler; who
actually believed that rest of the World dreams of being Germanized. Russia is
the Totalitarian "poster-boy" of the World.

forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=16589&w=27725567

[mishuk]

What you tell here is nothing more than common histeria.
The USA wasn't quite democratic as it may seem. Just remember Negro slavery and
Ku-Klux Klan atrocities up to the 1950s.
Secondly, I am not sure Americans could have won Germans by themsleves. I think
they didn't care too much and waited who would give in first- Russians or
Germans.
If Germans wouldn't suffer defeat, I am not sure if you would live in
democratic and prosperous Europe, you are happily got into. It's due to the
shock Europeans felt during the war!
Now, waldek, you can lick American boot if you like to. I won't lick anybody's
boot. Niether German's, nor American's, nor Polish (even if you polish it :)

[waldek1610]

You refuse to "lick anybody's butt" I don't blame you. But my point is that by
allying itself with western Europe and USA- Poland is not sucking up no them,
it's looking after its best interest.
I understand your position (partially), but why do you Russians expect the
World to follow you if you don't have anything to offer them in return. It's
been always like that. Russian mandatory "friendship" after WWII ment to Poland
sending Russia (Soviets) free food, armament and not being able to conduct its
own world-politics.
Again the difference between US and Russia is also that the US wants partners,
Russia wants satelites and submissive vasal states. Woul you expect anybody to
be in that position?

:]

[kontrkultura]

for both gentlemens knowledge:
forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=16589&w=27694593&a=27733229

oops, sorry

[mishuk]

I just forgot I am gentleman for a moment :)

[mishuk]

All talk but no cider.(American saying).
Let me speak up some points, I think you miss, guys.

First, Katyn.
Almost every Russian with higher education knows about this misdeed. And feel
sorry for the people killed by Stalin's order.
But still this blood of Poles is just a drop compared to the sea of blood
Soviet citizens endured during 1936-37 years. Do YOU know about this?
If you think that we must apologize every now and then, you are wrong. The best
way would seem to hunt for the former NKVD men who killed and tortured people.
Right? Yes.
But don't forget that we can't blame soldiers shooting people under orders of
higher command namely Stalin, Beria and their minions.
Polish government warms up its citizens' national feelings and to use their
nationalism to get together the nation and solve the current problems of the
state. This is plain as day.

Secondly, I don't believe Russia will collapse. No sooner than I die :)
Demographic problems can get straight in some 20 years. Terroristic threat is a
trifle. Countries don't fall if their citizens get killed occasionally. There
are many more mortal accidents on roads. So relax. We won't give up!

[nonno1]

mishuk napisał:

Zdravstvuj Mishuk!
Budu pisat' po russki no latinskim shriftom, net u menja grazhdanki.

> All talk but no cider.(American saying).
> Let me speak up some points, I think you miss, guys.
>
> First, Katyn.
> Almost every Russian with higher education knows about this misdeed. And feel
> sorry for the people killed by Stalin's order.
> But still this blood of Poles is just a drop compared to the sea of blood
> Soviet citizens endured during 1936-37 years. Do YOU know about this?

Da, my eto prekrasno znajem! No pochemu rossijskoe pravosudie i prokuratura ne
zanimaetsja raskrytiem etih stalinskih prestuplenij protiv krest'jan,
intelligencii i rabochih (russkih i vseh drugih nacional'nostej)? My konechno
dumajem o nashih zhertvah, no byli-by rady, chtoby vse zhertvy byli ob'javleny i
otdana im chest', a prestupniki osuzhdeny (a hotjaby nazwany po imeni otchestvu).
Rossijska vlast' otkazyvaetsja peredat nashim prokuroram bumagi po sledstviju po
voprosu Katyni. Pod predlogom sekretnosti! Kakaja sekretnost' posle 65 let? Chto
sekretno? Navernoe familii prestupnikov, kotorye navernoe uzhe pomerli. Znachit
Kremlin ohranjaet dazhe imena prestupnikov!

> If you think that we must apologize every now and then, you are wrong. The best
>
> way would seem to hunt for the former NKVD men who killed and tortured people.
> Right? Yes.
> But don't forget that we can't blame soldiers shooting people under orders of
> higher command namely Stalin, Beria and their minions.

Da, sovremennye Russkie ne vinovty stalinskih prestuplenij, tak zhe kak
sovremennye Nemcy ne vinovaty gitlerovskih prestuplenij. No Nemcy ne gordjatsja
gitlerovkimi pobedami i ne strojat svoej 'identity' (kak po russki ne mogu
vspomnit') na gitlerovkoj tradicii. A rossijskaja vlast' tak i delaet. Mr Putin
utverzhdaet, chto baltijskie strany prinadlezhali legal'no k Sovetskomu Sojuzu
(na prazdnovanii 60-letija pobedy). Znachit on opravdyvaet dogovor Stalin -
Hitler (Ribentropp - Molotov), dogovor sovershenno nesostojatelen s tochki
zrenija mezhdunarodnogo prava, dogovor kotoryj delal vozmozhnoj gitlerovkuju
agresivnuju vojnu.


> Polish government warms up its citizens' national feelings and to use their
> nationalism to get together the nation and solve the current problems of the
> state. This is plain as day.
>
> Secondly, I don't believe Russia will collapse. No sooner than I die :)

Etomu pochti nikto ne verit, na forume vyskazyvajutsja raznye frustraty i
neudachniki, ne stoit prinimat' ih vserjez.

> Demographic problems can get straight in some 20 years. Terroristic threat is a
>
> trifle. Countries don't fall if their citizens get killed occasionally. There
> are many more mortal accidents on roads. So relax. We won't give up!
>
>
>

I'll answer you tomorrow :)

[mishuk]

Sorry, I have no time.