ANYONE SWEEMS ???

IP: 64.66.216.* 24.10.02, 05:43
Not many americans know about it ...
Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. financial aid in the world,
receiving a staggering $14 million per day for the last 25 years. Below you
can see how they pay them back ...

DEAD IN THE WATER
Monday 10 June 9pm-10.10pm; rpt 11.50pm-1am
Sunday 16 June 10.10pm-11.20pm


During the Six-Day War, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty
belonging to its closest ally, the USA. Thirty-four American servicemen were
killed in the two-hour assault by Israeli warplanes and torpedo boats.
Israel claimed that the whole affair had been a tragic accident based on
mistaken identification of the ship. The American government accepted the
explanation.

For more than 30 years many people have disbelieved the official explanation
but have been unable to rebut it convincingly. Now, Dead in the Water uses
startling new evidence to reveal the truth behind the seemingly inexplicable
attack. The film combines dramatic reconstruction of the events, with new
access to former officers in the US and Israeli armed forces and
intelligence services who have decided to give their own version of events.

Interviews include President Lyndon Johnson's Secretary of Defence Robert
McNamara, former head of the Israeli navy Admiral Shlomo Errell and members
of the USS Liberty crew.


    • Gość: Wojtek Re: seemingly swiming IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 24.10.02, 11:59



      ussliberty.org/
    • Gość: erwas Re: ANYONE SWEEMS ??? IP: 12.96.204.* 25.10.02, 00:10
      Gość portalu: observer napisał(a):

      > During the Six-Day War, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty
      > belonging to its closest ally, the USA.

      there is more for the US to worry about than incidents dating from around the
      Six-Day War. US pilots flying over Iraqi no-fly zones face the risk of being
      shot down missiles developed by the US (Chinese PL-8 missiles, further
      developed in Israel). a House of Representatives sub-committee
      noted that Israel had given China "significant technology co-operation" in
      aircraft and missile development, most notably in developing the F-10 fighter
      and airborne early warning aircraft. the F-10 is closely modelled on Israel’s
      Lavi fighter, a project dropped in 1987 after it had been funded by the US to
      the tune of some $1.5bn. there have been other numerous secret technology
      transfers to China, including Patriot Missile technology. since China is a
      major Iraqi arms supplier, it would be ironic indeed if that section of the
      famed Axis ended up with the the very weapon which allegedly kept Israel out of
      the Gulf war the last time.
      erwas.
      • Gość: Wojtek Re: ANYONE SWEEMS ??? IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 25.10.02, 11:47

        Ironic indeed. Or is it?

        What goes round comes around, as they say. So "Bless" can change into "Save"
        in not so distant a future.

        erwas, hola, como estas?
        • Gość: erwas Re: ANYONE SWEEMS ??? IP: 12.96.204.* 25.10.02, 17:41
          Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

          >
          > Ironic indeed. Or is it?
          >
          > What goes round comes around, as they say. So "Bless" can change into "Save"
          > in not so distant a future.
          >
          > erwas, hola, como estas?
          • Gość: Wojtek Re: ANYONE SWEEMS ??? IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 25.10.02, 17:58

            Yes, I did.
            Commmment ça va?
            • Gość: erwas p...p...pero IP: 12.96.204.* 25.10.02, 19:46
              Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

              >
              > Yes, I did.
              > Commmment ça va?

              no estoy muy bien, it seems.
              estoy bardzo embrouille.

              erwas.

              • Gość: Wojtek Re: p...p...pero IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 25.10.02, 20:48

                I think I succeeded in attracting your attention to this thread? Good. In my
                view observer started something interesting. I chose to read his post like a
                question Why is the US pumping billions of dollars to maintain the rouge state
                called Israel? Sharon recently said (I can't support it with any evidence but I
                believe it) to his advisers: 'don't worry about America, we control America'. I
                am not antiSemite but I think you can call me antiZion. Frankly, I don't think
                Israel had the right to exist, but it is too late now, after more than half a
                century of its existense. What do you think?
                • Gość: erwas Re: p...p...pero IP: 12.96.204.* 26.10.02, 02:22
                  Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):
                  > Sharon recently said (I can't support it with any evidence but I
                  > believe it) to his advisers: 'don't worry about America, we control America'.

                  I also heard that quote.

                  > Frankly, I don't think Israel had the right to exist, but it is too late now,
                  > after more than half a century of its existense. What do you think?

                  right to exist: what does that mean? squirm as we will, might is right.
                  whether or not you are a rabid or otherwise anti-Semite, anti-Zionist, anti-
                  Israeli, Jew-baitng Nazi Polack, you must admit that you apply different
                  criteria for evaluating Jewish issues than you do for evaluating Kurdish,
                  Basque, Chechen, Tibetan, Native American, or Palestinian issues. does the US
                  have a right to exist? many Apaches, Navajos, Sioux and others would argue
                  against that notion. just in case no one has noticed and just for the record
                  let me confirm what you might have suspected, which is that the US and Israel
                  are rich and powerful. in the brave new Bushite "you're either for us or
                  against us" world you can become a useful ally or you can keep tossing rocks at
                  tanks.

                  so, Wojtek, who cares what you think about Israel's rights; "facts on the
                  ground" are Israel's rights. you live in a country accustomed to throwing
                  dizzying little fits of pique against it's political masters, I live among
                  people who shuffle through life burdened with sullen resentment against theirs.
                  there is only one escape: realize your own potential, be here now, get a life
                  (unless you being bombed intelligently), fuck the arsholes, etc. etc. etc.
                  slowly, if that does become the will of the people...we shall overcome.

                  I think...

                  erwas.


    • Gość: Tadek Re: ANYONE SWEEMS ??? IP: *.mel.connect.com.au / *.gw.connect.com.au 26.10.02, 02:55
      Why does USA give Israel so much money???? there must be a reason and the
      reason must be very important to USA. I assume it is important for USA to have
      a reliable friend in the Middle East. They have no other reliable friend there.
      No country gives money away for no reason.
      • Gość: Wojtek Re: ANYONE SWEEMS ??? IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 26.10.02, 12:40
        Ah, erwas,
        thank you for your thoughtful response which shook me out of narrow-minded
        complacency (sort of being right because agaist the might). Really, bullshit-
        cutting as much as pleasure to read it was - hope I don't sound too much of a
        sycophant.
        At the same time though, I couldn't help but detect an advice in you post,
        somewhat patronising at that, to change what I can (an attitude, perhaps?) and
        accept what I cannot change(reality?) and if I found that difficult tree
        hugging might help. Well, there are problems. Trees I find boring to talk to,
        on the other point, you, me, Israel in reality at the subatomic level are just
        clusters of photons, just flow of energy is reality as it is, an
        ultimate 'facts on the ground' some call it. But to accept it would require a
        different mind, differently conditioned (years in a Buddhist monastery might
        help I was told), so this one is out as well.
        Of course,you are right, this 'right to exist' is tricky business and made
        trickier by my unfortunate phrasing it thus. The right to land, then? And yes,
        I admit, I applied different criteria (as well as something like Ockham's
        razor, otherwise we could all claim Africa, though I am sure we wouldn't) to
        what you call the 'Jewish issues' for they mixed with Zionist land grabing
        justified (made rightful) by... the Bible. That's not the way for a secular
        state in XX century. But that I say only too agree with your remark and explain
        why I applied different criteria and I welcome any enlightening, if you find
        this ignorant. As I said earlier, it's too late, it has been done. And Jew-
        baiting? Erwas, it is wrong! (Although better fun than picking on spelling and
        more in line with honourable Polish tradition - now, that was a JOKE in case
        you weren't sure) I am not doing it! We are discussing Israel's behaviour. Only
        in this context, did we mention USS Liberty. Who cares, you say, what I think.
        Well, I don't know. I care what you think. I also believe that to care what
        others think (on personal as well as 'global'level is hel... healthier maybe?
        We are talking on this talking board.

        Tadek,
        I know, really. Thank you anyway.
        • Gość: erwas against the tide IP: 12.96.204.* 26.10.02, 19:15
          Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

          > I couldn't help but detect an advice in you post,
          > somewhat patronising at that,

          yeah, you're right.
          there is much at play here. ponderous online pomposity is one factor. also,
          this Jewish stuff is tricky for the likes of us who have apparent Polish
          identities. in addition, I overplayed the multiple twists of irony.
          I was saying something few would disagree with and which you restated in your
          post to some extent. our search for happiness, the core of our being, the paths
          towards self-knowledge, realization, the evolution of our souls and "the
          meaning of life" 'n' all that are generally not directly linked to political
          developments in the Middle East.

          as a political issue, the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a supreme example
          of the horror of incarnate life as we know it where hypocricy, double
          standards, pathological cruelty, various murderous instincts, and true evil are
          on a Biblical scale.
          however, casting stones is a tricky business IF you have to prove yourself to
          be without sin in advance.

          > tree hugging might help.

          OK. just avoid getting too sensual about it. and avoid trees in public places,
          even late at night.

          > And Jew-baiting? Erwas, it is wrong! (Although better fun than picking on
          > spelling and more in line with honourable Polish tradition

          have you noticed how anti-Semitic texts tend to very, very long. if I open a
          post and see that it runs deep below the bottom of my screen, my first thought
          is that I am faced with an anti-Semitic tirade.



          > Who cares, you say, what I think.

          you are taking this in a way which I did not intend. appart from using "you" in
          a UK English sort of fuzzy-plural sense I intended to imply that it is wrong to
          be careless about what "you" think. besides, I would hardly be labouring over
          these extensive texts if I did not care.

          erwas
          • Gość: Wojtek Re: against the tide IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 26.10.02, 20:31
            This is getting cloudy. It is not necessary to bring up 'Jewish issues' when
            mentioning Israel. And I find it silly to avoid talking about it because we are
            Polish; a kind of self imposed taboo. Psychologically oppressive... Ah, well.
            Let's talk about bad American Government. It is safe, even fashionable where
            I live. So why does US spends billions on its ME ally? To keep a base, a
            springboard for preaching "freedom and democracy" in the region - right? Of
            course, right. Incidently, I don't agree that 'might is right'. It has nothing
            to do with right. And to repeat that 'might is right' is shallow. It might whip
            up a bit of applause, but it is shallow.
            • Gość: erwas Re: against the tide IP: 12.96.204.* 26.10.02, 21:46
              Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

              > This is getting cloudy. It is not necessary to bring up 'Jewish issues' when
              > mentioning Israel. And I find it silly to avoid talking about it because we
              > are Polish; a kind of self imposed taboo. Psychologically oppressive... Ah,
              > well.

              the links between all these "issues" are like chains, binding shackles no less.
              taboo! you say. I'm hardly avoiding the topic. I am aware however, that it is
              not only what I say, but also who I am perceived to be, that determines the
              context of my statement for a third party. you ignore my point about casting
              stones. what happened between Poles, Russians, Jews, Germans, Ukrainians,
              Lithuanians and others in the last half century+ is far, FAR more horrific than
              anything occurring up to this point in the Jewish-Arab conflict, with not one
              of the above mentioned parties (including the Poles and the Jews) being merely
              innocent victims. Yes, Polish people were victims of aggression, for sure. all
              through the happy PRL decades we were taught that and just that. kind of like
              the Jews of Israel seeing themselves the "light among nations"; it turns out
              that this here "Christ among nations" had another aspect: not just Jedwabne
              etc., but also mass genocide and mass deportations carried out against Germans
              and Ukrainians. yeah, yeah, yeah: they started it.

              none of the above means that we cannot we cannot make objective judgements about
              the situation in the Middle East. but let's avoid so much of this innocent
              shock and horror: "how COULD they!" we could, others could. now it's the turn
              of a bunch of depraved Jewish fuckers.

              > Let's talk about bad American Government. It is safe, even fashionable where
              I live. So why does US spends billions on its ME ally? To keep a base,
              > a springboard for preaching "freedom and democracy" in the region - right?
              Of
              > course, right. Incidentally, I don't agree that 'might is right'. It has
              nothing
              > to do with right. And to repeat that 'might is right' is shallow.
              > It might whip
              > up a bit of applause, but it is shallow.

              sorry, I'm finding it difficult to understand the motivation of the US
              government other than all this being a rather blatant attempt at world
              domination. I agree with and understand the view of many Arabs that Israel is
              an imperial projection of the US.
              you object to "might is right"? you're overlooking the fact that it kind of
              rhymes and is also one of the most popular strategies not only in politics, but
              in Nature itself.
              I can not deny it. I do look for applause sometimes, but I do cringe in horror
              at being called shallow.

              as you say: ah, well...

              erwas

              • Gość: Wojtek Re: against the tide IP: *.abo.wanadoo.fr 26.10.02, 22:24

                I did not call you shallow, I said the statement was shallow. I never intended
                to make you 'cringe in horror' nor offend you in any way and if I did then I am
                sorry. I value your posts and I certainly don't want you to have hard feelings
                against me. That's all I can say.
                Wojtek

                PS Cheer up. Don't be so touchy.
                • Gość: erwas Re: against the tide IP: 12.96.204.* 27.10.02, 04:08

                  > PS Cheer up. Don't be so touchy

                  yes, thank you! why worry, be happy!
                  no half empty - more half fool.

                  let's have no hard feelings
                  (or too many gooey, flabby thoughts).
                  let's look for deep, hidden meanings in our posts and build a better world
                  together.

                  BTW: cringe in horror = joke-like phrase.
                  erwas


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