Local elections – how to participate

[hardenfelt]

Today I went to my local city administration in Mokotów (Warsaw) in order to
register for the forthcoming local elections. As the elections will probably
take place around October 10th the is only another couple of weeks to go if
you want to participate in the elections.

Any EU-citizens with a permanent address in Poland is entitled to take part
in the municipal elections, but I must admit that people seemed a bit
bewildered when I requested to be placed in the electoral register. I spoke
to three or four people who didn’t know anything, but I last I was directed
to a guy who is dealing with the stuff. Just in case any of you should have
any kind of problems with the registration, here is a page which explains it
all in Polish:

bip.umtychy.pl/?grupa=podmioty&dzial=um&kat=wydzialy&id=23&pkat=sprawy&idd=220

You have to fill out 2 forms and present a photocopy of your Polish residence
card.

The first form is a petition to be placed in the electoral register. The
second form is a declaration that you have not been deprived of the right to
vote in your country of origin. Both forms can be found here:

bip.umtychy.pl/pokaz.php?plik=swo_wpisdorejwybczb.pdf&kat=wydzialy_sprawy

REMEMBER: Registration must take place by the latest 30 days before the
elections.

[finninwaw]

Last time round I went out to register 2 days too late and have been kicking
myself for the last couple years. Won't be making that mistake again, and I hope
other EU citizens here in Poland will make good use of their right to vote. We
could probably together make a bit of a difference, considering the low voter
turnout in local elections here!

[hardenfelt]

Only a few more days to go if you want to register! Anyone did it already,
except from me?

[sobieski010]

I tried last week Thursday here in Bielany, Warsaw.
After a lot of consternation and phoning around they told mne I cannot vote here
because I have a "pobyt czasowy" and not a "pobyt Stały",(I have one for EU
citizens for 5 yrs). On Długa 5 they told me it was a "grey zone" and I have to
battle it out with Bielany. HELP !!!!
Give me some weapons to fight back !
I think they realize almost 99,999 % of all foreigners in Warsaw would vote PO -
so better to stop them...
What I need now is some ammunition to fight Gmina Bielań, so all help welcome.
Even if too late for these elections, but surely for the next ones.

[hardenfelt]

sobieski010 napisał:

> I tried last week Thursday here in Bielany, Warsaw.
> After a lot of consternation and phoning around they told mne I cannot vote
her
> e
> because I have a "pobyt czasowy" and not a "pobyt Stały",(I have one for EU
> citizens for 5 yrs). On Długa 5 they told me it was a "grey zone" and I have
to
> battle it out with Bielany. HELP !!!!
> Give me some weapons to fight back !
> I think they realize almost 99,999 % of all foreigners in Warsaw would vote
PO
> -
> so better to stop them...
> What I need now is some ammunition to fight Gmina Bielań, so all help welcome.
> Even if too late for these elections, but surely for the next ones.

Sobieski010!

First of all – are you registered for „pobyt czasowy” in Warsaw because you
don’t have any long/termed relations to this town, or because these fuckers
didn’t want to register you for pobyt stały.

If you have a valid rental contract or any other proof that you actually live
where you live, then I’ll be happy to go with you to the town hall tomorrow and
take care they register you for “stały pobyt”. Unfortunately it must be
tomorrow, as I’m not available the next week. The lack of “stały pobyt” is
troublesome in this country, not only in relation to public authorities, but
also in relation to banks, work and a whole lot of other things.

The rules state that you should have a permanent address where you vote. This
is problematic, as most small-minded Polish officials consider a permanent
address to equal stały meldunek. But the law does not say anything about stały
meldunek - it says that you should “stałe zamieszkiwać” – i.e. actually living
where you live. In my point of view, if you have lived where you live for the
past 6 month, then you live there permanently. Unfortunately Polish officials
have their own way of interpreting things, as the following sequence shows:

Art. 6a. 1. Prawo wybierania do rady gminy ma również obywatel Unii
Europejskiej niebędący obywatelem polskim, który najpóźniej w dniu głosowania
kończy 18 lat, stale zamieszkuje na obszarze działania tej gminy oraz który, z
zastrzeżeniem ust. 2,został wpisany do prowadzonego w tej gminie stałego
rejestru wyborców najpóźniej na 12 miesięcy przed dniem wyborów.
(Art. 6a ust. 1 został uznany przez Trybunał Konstytucyjny za niezgodny z
Konstytucją Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej w zakresie, w jakim pozbawia czynnego
prawa wyborczego do rady gminy obywateli Unii Europejskiej niebędących
obywatelami polskimi, wpisanych do prowadzonego w gminie stałego rejestru
wyborców w okresie krótszym niż 12 miesięcy przed dniem wyborów - Wyrok TK z
dnia 20 lutego 2006 r. - DZ. U. Nr 43, poz. 242)
www.pkw.gov.pl/pkw2/index.jsp?place=Lead07&news_cat_id=1926&news_id=7145&layout=1&page=text

The above practice has been changed. But meldunek and living has nothing to do
with each other. I will be happy to discuss this with your town hall.

Article 9 of the law states: Art. 9. Przy ustalaniu faktu stałego zamieszkania
dla potrzeb niniejszej ustawy stosuje się przepisy Kodeksu cywilnego. (same
link as above)

Please – I’ll love to fight this together with you tomorrow. Mail me if it is
possible.

[usenetposts]

I could only get the 5 years as well. I was told that's all we get, the 5
years, and if that's the case, then they have to allow us to vote in elections
with 5 years stay, or else immediately give us the staly pobyt.

I would be interested in getting staly pobyt also.

If they refuse, they should do so in writing, and it will be grounds to cjange
my tax status back to a lower tax jurisdiction.

[hardenfelt]

usenetposts napisał:

> I could only get the 5 years as well. I was told that's all we get, the 5
> years, and if that's the case, then they have to allow us to vote in
elections
> with 5 years stay, or else immediately give us the staly pobyt.
>
> I would be interested in getting staly pobyt also.
>
> If they refuse, they should do so in writing, and it will be grounds to
cjange
> my tax status back to a lower tax jurisdiction.
>

You will NEVER get a "stały pobyt". Only foreginers get Karta stałego pobytu
and you are European citizen, i.e. have the same rights as Poles.

[hardenfelt]

hardenfelt napisał:

> You will NEVER get a "stały pobyt". Only foreginers get Karta stałego pobytu
> and you are European citizen, i.e. have the same rights as Poles.

But we might have to fight a bit for our rights.

[usenetposts]

OK, Mike, so if I can never get a staly pobyt, surely they must let me vote on
the basis of the 5 year card?

[hardenfelt]

I have a 5 years card and I'm registered. The point is, it takes a looooong
time before Polish officials find out that something changed. Sometimes we have
to work our way through ourselves.

By the way, the EU commission is working on abolishing alien-cards for EU-
citizens. It should come through within 2 years. I suppose we will get a normal
Dowód Osobisty by then.

[usenetposts]

That would be good news.

Let's all be just Europeans. Let's consider being Danish or British or Polish
as little more important than coming from Seeland or Hertfordshire or
Mazowieckie wojewodship.


hardenfelt napisał:

> I have a 5 years card and I'm registered. The point is, it takes a looooong
> time before Polish officials find out that something changed. Sometimes we
have
>
> to work our way through ourselves.
>
> By the way, the EU commission is working on abolishing alien-cards for EU-
> citizens. It should come through within 2 years. I suppose we will get a
normal
>
> Dowód Osobisty by then.

[hardenfelt]

sobieski010 napisał:

> I tried last week Thursday here in Bielany, Warsaw.
> After a lot of consternation and phoning around they told mne I cannot vote
her
> e
> because I have a "pobyt czasowy" and not a "pobyt Stały",(I have one for EU
> citizens for 5 yrs).

Registration in the registration office (pobyt stały or czasowy) takes place on
the basis of ustawa o ewidencji ludności i dowodach osobistych from 1974. The
law has onviously been changed many times. An updated version can be found
here:

www.portalmed.pl/xml/prawo/rozne/dowody/050788u
It is not surprising that your local city council doesn’t know the law, because
the above version is not an official version which has been published in the
Gazette (dziennik ustaw). Such consolidated acts are only published now and
then. In stead the changes are published, and the poor officials must search
miles of laws to establish the present legal state. If you go to Warsaw’s
official page:

www.wom.warszawa.pl/linki.php
- then you will find an outdated version of the law (from 2001):

bap-psp.lex.pl/serwis/du/2001/0960.htm
When you have a “Karta Pobytu obywatela Unii Europejskiej” you are of course
permanently resident in Poland and you have a right to register for “pobyt
stały”. Article 26, subsection 2. To convince local city council you will
probably have to make a print of the law.

Even if they accept that the rules have changed, and that your Karta Pobytu
suffice, then they might find other reasons not to register you. For some
strange reason they simply don’t like to register people (Poles and aliens
alike) for “stały pobyt”. They can claim that it is impossible to register you
because you are already registered for pobyt czasowy, they can claim that you
haven’t proved the right to the flat/ house you are living in or they can find
some other obscure reason. Whatever they come up with, it’s bullshit, but in
each case you have to find the appropriate paragraph to prove their
incompetence.

[finninwaw]

I got it done yesterday at Gmina Ursynów.

The urzednik didn't have a problem with the fact that I'm registered for
"temporary residence" for 5 years.

[babiana]

Some more information.
Local elections:
www.infor.pl/pisma/gsia.html?p180=I41.2006.017.000003400&art_id=538042
Prawo pobytu and czasowe prawo pobytu:
www.msz.gov.pl/Informacja,dla,obywateli,krajow,UE,i,EOG,przyjezdzajacych,do,Polski,1838.html

[sobieski010]

A late thanks to everybody who gave valuable information here.
I am still trying to get everything sorted out before the elections (does
anybody know when they will be ? 10 October or so?)

[babiana]

18th September 2006

New election law amended

From Warsaw Business Journal

People who moved within the last year will be permitted to vote normally in
their new voting ward during the local government elections.

The electoral law was changed to avoid a mistake preventing normal voting.

[babiana]

18th September 2006

German minority

From Warsaw Business Journal

LPR has submitted its amendments to election rules, doing away with privileges
for the German minority (GM).

Introduced by the Polish-German relationship treaty in the early 1990s, the
privileges state that the GM does not need to achieve a 5% threshold nationwide,
only in their constituency. PM Kaczyński explained that it was a token of good
will from Poland at the time, but the time has come to demand the same for
Polish minorities. (Poland A.M.)

[marcus_anglikiem]

i can't imagine such retardation can possibly exist anywhere but in Bliar's uk:
i got home from work today to find a letter from the government telling me i
face a £1000 (5850zl) fine unless i tell them the full names of each person
living in this property along with nationality, and sign and date & return.
they tried to disguise it as something to do with elections but really it's a
database of everyone's identity, location and so much more not many people know
about, by the back door (i.e. stealing from people if they do not SUBMIT)!

[raggety]

What I've read here seems really confusing. It was my understanding that to
vote you need a karta pobytu obywatela UE. I have a karta stałego pobytu so I
assumed I couldn't vote - and I have no intention of changing it until it
expires as my karta stałego pobytu is better than the EU citizen card. As
for "stałe mieszkanie", it usually means stały meldunek and you can't get stały
meldunek just because you fancy it! you need a document (in my case it was a
karta stałego pobytu in the form of a little "booklet" with places for
residence stamps; when cards were changed, I had to show the voivode's decision
granting me permanent residence). No biuro meldunkowe will let you have stały
meldunek just because you've lived at an address for 6 months. Besides, if the
address you want to be registered for stały meldunek isn't your property, you
need the owner's consent, and you can forget that unless it belongs to your
spouse or in-laws. Dz.U. 2006, Nr 144, poz. 1043 has the latest on residence of
EU citizens. To get pobyt stały you have to have been resident here for 5
years. On the other hand, one of those links about voting mentioned attaching a
document showing that the EU citizen is on the electoral register in their home
country - but I fail to see how I can be on the UK electoral register if I'm a
permanent resident of Poland!

[hardenfelt]

raggety napisała:

> What I've read here seems really confusing. It was my understanding that to
> vote you need a karta pobytu obywatela UE. I have a karta stałego pobytu so I
> assumed I couldn't vote - and I have no intention of changing it until it
> expires as my karta stałego pobytu is better than the EU citizen card. As
> for "stałe mieszkanie", it usually means stały meldunek and

You need to be a EU citizens and live permanently in Poland. It doesn’t matter
what kind of card you have.

Ustawa z dnia 16 lipca 1998 r. with later changes - Ordynacja wyborcza do rad
gmin, rad powiatów i sejmików województw. Article 6a, 1

You are right that in many cases a Karta Stałego Pobytu is better than the EU
citizen card – but only because of people’s ignorance. The EU citizens card is
in fact a card granting us the same rights as native poles, but it doesn’t help
much when nobody knows. I understand that you don’t want to change. In 2 years
time the law will change, and by then we will get a normal Dowód Osobiśty.

In case of elections “stałe mieszkanie” means actual place of living, according
to kodeks cywilny. Article 9 of the above law.

raggety napisała:

On the other hand, one of those links about voting mentioned attaching a
>
> document showing that the EU citizen is on the electoral register in their
home
>
> country - but I fail to see how I can be on the UK electoral register if I'm
a
> permanent resident of Poland!

You don’t have to be on the British electoral register, but you must not be
deprived of your voting rights in Great Britain.

[hardenfelt]

raggety napisała:
Dz.U. 2006, Nr 144, poz. 1043 has the latest on residence of
>
> EU citizens.
I have read the new law you mentioned. Fine. This is the sort of information we
need here.

The law has been changed. until August 25th you could register for pobyt stały
on the basis of a “citizens card”

It is true they made a new concept for EU citizens “prawo stałego pobytu”,
which you can obtain after 5 years in Poland. This means, that after 5 years
they would not be able to redraw your right to live in Poland, even in the case
where you are not able to support yourself financially. This is ok and in
accordance with EU-rules.

They have also connected this right to registration or “meldunek”. This means,
that after the new rules you will need to live in Poland for 5 years to
get “stały meldunek”. I believe this is some kind of mistake, and it will
probably be changed soon.

Stały meldunek is imperative in Poland to exercise your basic rights as a
citizens. This has been established by the courts on several occasions. Also a
Polish citizens should register himself for “stały pobyt” if he intends to stay
somewhere for more than 2 months, unless he plans to return to his former
residence. As so the new law is discriminatory to EU-citizens and as so
contradictory to EU-regulations. It can only be a matter of time before it is
questioned in the EU court. As for now, it is at it is; as usual unknown to
officials, as I succeeded in registering a friend of mine for “stały pobyt”
today.

The thing to do now is to start sending a well augmented letters to the
Ministry with complaints. I might help. The law making process is haphazard,
but they change them again quickly.

[sobieski010]

Thanks Michael. Today we have beaten the bureaucrates and they did not like it
one bit. Seems I have escaped just in time.
Local elections, here I come... and PIS, eat your heart out

By the way, the consequences of this new regulations are immense.
What if you as an EU citizen want to get a mortgage to buy a house?
No bank will talk to you if you do not have a meldunek stały.

[raggety]

If pobyt stały isn't going to be linked to stały meldunek, there shouldn't be
any problem in getting it. I got pobyt stały based on an invitation from a
Pole, but then her husband refused to register me for stały meldunek so for a
while my karta stałego pobytu was without an address stamp and worthless. Got
it sorted in the end, someone else offered me their address. I assume the
friend you got registered owns his own flat.

[hardenfelt]

raggety napisała:
I assume the
> friend you got registered owns his own flat.

Yes he own his own flat. But I rent mine, and I also have “stały meldunek”. I
did not ask my landlord to sign any papers when I registered my stały
meldunek, as it is and was my conviction that this is none of his business. I
had to discuss with them at the Biuro Meldunkowe, but not for long. A rental
contract is enough. The only people there can have problems today are people
who live with a friend, without any kind of contract.

After pressure from the Constitutional Court and the Supreme Court the rules
for meldunek have gradually been relaxed during the past 5 years, and the only
purpose of meldunek is now to inform the authorities about your whereabouts.

This is why it is completely unacceptable when EU-citizens are now deprived of
their right to stały meldunek until they get their permanent residence paper.
The Supreme Court stated that the former rules where to burdensome and that
everyone with a permanent address has the right to stały meldunek, whereas the
Constitutional Court stated that the former rules limited the constitutional
right to move freely within Poland. The rules where subsequently changed, but
EU-citizens are now subjected to almost the same rules as Poles lived under
earlier. And this is discriminating and therefore unacceptable.

[raggety]

If you have stały meldunek at a flat belonging to your landlord, can he de-
register you from the flat without your consent? It used to be the case that
only the person with the stały meldunek could de-register themselves, which was
why stały meldunek was so difficult to get - the owner can't sell the flat if
someone is registered as having stały meldunek there and he couldn't de-
register that person either (unless they were no longer living there, but that
involved administrative proceedings, calling witnesses, etc. and was time-
consuming).
Re. elections - Once an EU citizen registers for elections, is that
registration valid indefinitely or do we have to register for local elections
each time?

[usenetposts]

[hardenfelt]

raggety napisała:

> If you have stały meldunek at a flat belonging to your landlord, can he de-
> register you from the flat without your consent? It used to be the case that
> only the person with the stały meldunek could de-register themselves, which
was
>
> why stały meldunek was so difficult to get - the owner can't sell the flat if
> someone is registered as having stały meldunek there and he couldn't de-
> register that person either (unless they were no longer living there, but
that
> involved administrative proceedings, calling witnesses, etc. and was time-
> consuming).

It is still an administrative decision to de-register someone. This is
obviously impossible as long as the interested person still lives in the
property. If someone moves away he should de-register himself. If he doesn’t do
so he violates the law and is liable to a fine, which obviously doesn’t help
the owner much.

In that case the procedure has been simplified. The interested person applies
for de-registration and gives his reasons why this should be done. Then he pays
5 zł. and wait for 30 days. Within that time the gmina can do whatever they
like to verify if this person lives on the address. It is probably different
from gmina to gmina what they actually do in that case (send a letter or send
straż miejska to check). If the case is very complicated they can wait for 2
months with an answer, but this is the maximum period they are allowed to wait.

> Re. elections - Once an EU citizen registers for elections, is that
> registration valid indefinitely or do we have to register for local elections
> each time?

I forgot to ask, but it’s not mentioned in the law. I presume – but don’t know –
that you are registered as long as you don’t change your address.