Czy zydzi sie budza?

Gość: A.D. IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 00:21

))Ciekawie donosi 'Haaretz'. Okazuje sie ze kilka zydowskich matek
obserwowalo co sie dzieje na punktcie kontrolnym, gdzie sie
zwykle ..dokopuje Palestynczykow, w zaleznosci od stopnia zezwierzecenia
danego zolnierza w sluzbie swojego 'wybranego narodu'. Ku swojemu
oslupieniu, Izraelki te byly swiadkami mordowania dzieci Palestynskich
poprzez bohaterskich obroncow Izraela!!!

Eye witnesses

Two Israelis who witnessed Palestinians being shot by the IDF could not
believe their eyes.

In recent weeks, columnist Gideon Levy described two violent incidents in
the territories in which a Palestinian boy was killed and a Palestinian girl
was injured. In the wake of these articles, two eyewitnesses sent their
testimonies on the circumstances of the shootings. Both raise serious
questions concerning the behavior of IDF soldiers

1. Deliberate shooting at children

I read Gideon Levy's article about the death of Omar Matar ("The 144th
Child," Haaretz Magazine, April 11) following my own personal familiarity
with the events that are described in it. As someone who personally
witnessed the incident at the Qalandiyah checkpoint, on Friday, March 28, I
can say that it was a traumatic, terrible, unimaginable experience. My
girlfriend and I arrived at the site as members of WATCH, a group of Israeli
women who oppose the occupation and who observe the checkpoints every day in
the area of Jerusalem and the West Bank.

This was not the first time we have seen what has become routine at the
checkpoints: Children throwing stones at the fence near the Qalandiyah
neighborhood and burning tires. Within a few minutes, a group of about 10
soldiers advanced in the direction of the children and began shooting at
them. Stunned by what we were seeing - soldiers armed with rifles, wearing
helmets and flak jackets shooting at a small group of schoolchildren - we
immediately called the Benjamin Brigade commander, who told us that the
orders to the soldiers that we had seen were to shoot rubber bullets in the
air. I told him that I could see with my own eyes that they were not
shooting in the air, but that they were shooting right at the children and
that it is known that rubber bullets (which are really steel bullets covered
in rubber) can kill. Within a short time, an ambulance came to the
neighborhood's main street and we learned that a boy, Omar Musa Matar, had
been shot in the head.

Our warnings to the army had fallen on deaf ears and failed to prevent
Omar's death. This incident brings a number of difficult thoughts to mind -
thoughts about the imperviousness, cruelty and total contempt for
Palestinian lives, which is reflected in the fact that after years of
intifada, the Israel Defense Forces and the police have not yet found ways
to disperse civilian riots that comply with international law; about the
soldiers armed with rifles facing off against little children with stones;
about the horrific disparity between the orders given by senior commanders
and the reality on the ground, in which each soldier acts as he sees fit in
the full knowledge that he will not be tried for murder, abuse, robbery or
any other trampling of the law and human rights.

According to figures provided by B'Tselem [The Israeli Information Center
for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories], the number of incidents in
which the Military Police launches an investigation following the killing of
innocents by soldiers is minimal, the manner in which the investigations are
conducted ludicrous and the number of the convictions negligible.
Consequently, I will not be surprised if the murderer is not brought to
justice in this case either. This is not a trigger-happy soldier, but rather
a group of soldiers acting like a murderous gang, storming a group of
children that do not represent a genuine danger.

Adi Dagan

Herzliya

Questions to the IDF Spokesman: In Gideon Levy's article about the incident,
he quotes the eyewitness testimony of Walid Zawawi, the deputy director of
the Qalandiyah camp for UNRWA, who said that a soldier shot the boy while in
a kneeling position, that two bullets hit the boy, one in the head and the
other in the neck, and that afterward, the soldiers also shot a Palestinian
who tried to evacuate the wounded boy. The response of the IDF Spokesman at
the time was: "The Military Police is investigating the incident." Has the
investigation been concluded? What were the findings and what steps, if any,
have been taken against the commander/shooter(s)?

The response of the IDF Spokesman: The investigation is still ongoing.

2. No danger to the soldiers

In the article about the Tul Karm refugee camp (Haaretz Magazine, March 28),
Gideon Levy mentioned a 15-year-old girl "who apparently tried to stab a
soldier" at a checkpoint. She was shot and "has been lying wounded in Meir
Hospital, handcuffed, for a few weeks now." On February 20 of this year, I
was serving in the reserves at the checkpoint between Taibeh and Tul Karm.
At about four o'clock in the afternoon, I went up to my post. About an hour
and a half afterward, a girl of about 15 arrived, walked behind me and
continued in the direction of a group of soldiers at the main area of the
checkpoint. She stopped and at a certain point, took out a knife and stood
without moving for quite a while. True, she did wave the knife in the air,
but what she did was far from endangering the soldiers.

The commander of the checkpoint, who arrived meanwhile, carried out the
proper procedure for arresting a suspect and shot at her from a few meters
away. The procedure calls for a warning shot in the air; if the suspect
still does not stop, shots may be fired at the the suspect's legs and only
after that at the suspect's torso. I heard three shots. After that, for a
long while, she lay there bleeding and crying, "I want my mother." It was
quite a difficult sight to see. An ambulance that arrived was not allowed to
approach her until IDF sappers had finished checking her.

I have been doing my reserve duty in the territories since April 1988. I
have accumulated quite a bit of experience, and this time I decided to use
my own judgment during my work at the checkpoint. When I saw older people
coming to ask for permission to go through to visit their children in
Taibeh, or mixed couples, I let them go through. My behavior caused some
disagreement and consequently, the subject was brought out in the open. I
explained that I was not working from a particularly leftist position, but
rather from a human point of view.

A number of things should be made clear about the shooter. The officer that
shot the girl is an educator in his civilian life. We have been conducting a
dialogue from either side of the line that crosses Israeli society for close
to 15 years. About 13 years ago, while sitting together in a Jeep in Rafah,
I asked him if he really believes that it is a decree from heaven and that
this is how we must live with the Palestinians. Since then, the subject has
remained open between us through all the years, and here, after all these
years, we end up meeting again in a situation like this.

Let me make it clear: this is not a matter of black and white. During our
previous reserve duty, after we once again held long discussions with one
another, he invited me to give a lecture to the 12th-grade students in his
school. I believe that those who can, must volunteer to serve in the
territories in order to be at the meeting points with the population, and do
what is needed to prevent abuse by soldiers, to treat the members of foreign
organizations respectfully and to treat the Palestinians with respect and
hope. Perhaps in this way it will be possible to have a greater influence
reality.

I, for example,

Obserwuj wątek

Gość: A.D. Re: Czy zydzi sie budza? IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 18:35

)) Ci w Izraelu, ktorzy chcieliby pisac i mowic prawde o tej, skainad
tragicznej sytuacji tam, takze dla Izraelczykow, sa potepiani jako 'zdrajcy'.
Zdrajcy czego? Ludzkich wartosci? Dazenia do zaprzestania codziennych mordow
na dzieciach, kobietach i kogokolwiek, do kogo izraelscy zolnierze chca sobie
postrzelac? Jakie wartosci bedzie przedstawiala spolecznosc Izraela po takich
dlugoletnich wplywach absolutnego cynizmu na psychike tamtejszych obywateli?
No i na zrozumialy odwet ze strony okupowanych Palestynczykow?
)) Stanowisko, jakie na tych forach zajmuja zydzi, z pewnym, przyzwoitym
wyjatkiem, po prostu przeraza! Bowiem spoleczenstwo, w ktorym nie tylko
pozwala sie na zbrodnie, ale wrecz zacheca, jest bardzo chorym
spoleczenstwem!!! Czy istnieje jakakolwiek nadzieja ze zydzi chcieliby
uczciwego rozwiazania tego gordyjskiego wezla?

Gość portalu: A.D. napisał(a):

) ))Ciekawie donosi 'Haaretz'. Okazuje sie ze kilka zydowskich matek
) obserwowalo co sie dzieje na punktcie kontrolnym, gdzie sie
) zwykle ..dokopuje Palestynczykow, w zaleznosci od stopnia zezwierzecenia
) danego zolnierza w sluzbie swojego 'wybranego narodu'. Ku swojemu
) oslupieniu, Izraelki te byly swiadkami mordowania dzieci Palestynskich
) poprzez bohaterskich obroncow Izraela!!!
)
) Eye witnesses
)
) Two Israelis who witnessed Palestinians being shot by the IDF could not
) believe their eyes.
)
) In recent weeks, columnist Gideon Levy described two violent incidents in
) the territories in which a Palestinian boy was killed and a Palestinian girl
) was injured. In the wake of these articles, two eyewitnesses sent their
) testimonies on the circumstances of the shootings. Both raise serious
) questions concerning the behavior of IDF soldiers
)
)
)
) 1. Deliberate shooting at children
)
) I read Gideon Levy's article about the death of Omar Matar ("The 144th
) Child," Haaretz Magazine, April 11) following my own personal familiarity
) with the events that are described in it. As someone who personally
) witnessed the incident at the Qalandiyah checkpoint, on Friday, March 28, I
) can say that it was a traumatic, terrible, unimaginable experience. My
) girlfriend and I arrived at the site as members of WATCH, a group of Israeli
) women who oppose the occupation and who observe the checkpoints every day in
) the area of Jerusalem and the West Bank.
)
) This was not the first time we have seen what has become routine at the
) checkpoints: Children throwing stones at the fence near the Qalandiyah
) neighborhood and burning tires. Within a few minutes, a group of about 10
) soldiers advanced in the direction of the children and began shooting at
) them. Stunned by what we were seeing - soldiers armed with rifles, wearing
) helmets and flak jackets shooting at a small group of schoolchildren - we
) immediately called the Benjamin Brigade commander, who told us that the
) orders to the soldiers that we had seen were to shoot rubber bullets in the
) air. I told him that I could see with my own eyes that they were not
) shooting in the air, but that they were shooting right at the children and
) that it is known that rubber bullets (which are really steel bullets covered
) in rubber) can kill. Within a short time, an ambulance came to the
) neighborhood's main street and we learned that a boy, Omar Musa Matar, had
) been shot in the head.
)
) Our warnings to the army had fallen on deaf ears and failed to prevent
) Omar's death. This incident brings a number of difficult thoughts to mind -
) thoughts about the imperviousness, cruelty and total contempt for
) Palestinian lives, which is reflected in the fact that after years of
) intifada, the Israel Defense Forces and the police have not yet found ways
) to disperse civilian riots that comply with international law; about the
) soldiers armed with rifles facing off against little children with stones;
) about the horrific disparity between the orders given by senior commanders
) and the reality on the ground, in which each soldier acts as he sees fit in
) the full knowledge that he will not be tried for murder, abuse, robbery or
) any other trampling of the law and human rights.
)
) According to figures provided by B'Tselem [The Israeli Information Center
) for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories], the number of incidents in
) which the Military Police launches an investigation following the killing of
) innocents by soldiers is minimal, the manner in which the investigations are
) conducted ludicrous and the number of the convictions negligible.
) Consequently, I will not be surprised if the murderer is not brought to
) justice in this case either. This is not a trigger-happy soldier, but rather
) a group of soldiers acting like a murderous gang, storming a group of
) children that do not represent a genuine danger.
)
) Adi Dagan
)
) Herzliya
)
)
)
) Questions to the IDF Spokesman: In Gideon Levy's article about the incident,
) he quotes the eyewitness testimony of Walid Zawawi, the deputy director of
) the Qalandiyah camp for UNRWA, who said that a soldier shot the boy while in
) a kneeling position, that two bullets hit the boy, one in the head and the
) other in the neck, and that afterward, the soldiers also shot a Palestinian
) who tried to evacuate the wounded boy. The response of the IDF Spokesman at
) the time was: "The Military Police is investigating the incident." Has the
) investigation been concluded? What were the findings and what steps, if any,
) have been taken against the commander/shooter(s)?
)
)
)
) The response of the IDF Spokesman: The investigation is still ongoing.
)
) 2. No danger to the soldiers
)
) In the article about the Tul Karm refugee camp (Haaretz Magazine, March 28),
) Gideon Levy mentioned a 15-year-old girl "who apparently tried to stab a
) soldier" at a checkpoint. She was shot and "has been lying wounded in Meir
) Hospital, handcuffed, for a few weeks now." On February 20 of this year, I
) was serving in the reserves at the checkpoint between Taibeh and Tul Karm.
) At about four o'clock in the afternoon, I went up to my post. About an hour
) and a half afterward, a girl of about 15 arrived, walked behind me and
) continued in the direction of a group of soldiers at the main area of the
) checkpoint. She stopped and at a certain point, took out a knife and stood
) without moving for quite a while. True, she did wave the knife in the air,
) but what she did was far from endangering the soldiers.
)
) The commander of the checkpoint, who arrived meanwhile, carried out the
) proper procedure for arresting a suspect and shot at her from a few meters
) away. The procedure calls for a warning shot in the air; if the suspect
) still does not stop, shots may be fired at the the suspect's legs and only
) after that at the suspect's torso. I heard three shots. After that, for a
) long while, she lay there bleeding and crying, "I want my mother." It was
) quite a difficult sight to see. An ambulance that arrived was not allowed to
) approach her until IDF sappers had finished checking her.
)
) I have been doing my reserve duty in the territories since April 1988. I
) have accumulated quite a bit of experience, and this time I decided to use
) my own judgment during my work at the checkpoint. When I saw older people
) coming to ask for permission to go through to visit their children in
) Taibeh, or mixed couples, I let them go through. My behavior caused some
) disagreement and consequently, the subject was brought out in the open. I
) explained that I was not working from a particularly leftist position, but
) rather from a human point of view.
)
) A number of things should be made clear about the shooter. The officer that
) shot

Drzewko
Od najstarszego
Od najnowszego

Gość: A.D. Re: Czy zydzi sie budza? Cz.II IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 00:25

I have been doing my reserve duty in the territories since April 1988. I have
accumulated quite a bit of experience, and this time I decided to use my own
judgment during my work at the checkpoint. When I saw older people coming to
ask for permission to go through to visit their children in Taibeh, or mixed
couples, I let them go through. My behavior caused some disagreement and
consequently, the subject was brought out in the open. I explained that I was
not working from a particularly leftist position, but rather from a human
point of view.

A number of things should be made clear about the shooter. The officer that
shot the girl is an educator in his civilian life. We have been conducting a
dialogue from either side of the line that crosses Israeli society for close
to 15 years. About 13 years ago, while sitting together in a Jeep in Rafah, I
asked him if he really believes that it is a decree from heaven and that this
is how we must live with the Palestinians. Since then, the subject has
remained open between us through all the years, and here, after all these
years, we end up meeting again in a situation like this.

Let me make it clear: this is not a matter of black and white. During our
previous reserve duty, after we once again held long discussions with one
another, he invited me to give a lecture to the 12th-grade students in his
school. I believe that those who can, must volunteer to serve in the
territories in order to be at the meeting points with the population, and do
what is needed to prevent abuse by soldiers, to treat the members of foreign
organizations respectfully and to treat the Palestinians with respect and
hope. Perhaps in this way it will be possible to have a greater influence
reality.

I, for example, appealed after the incident to the Yesh Gvul movement -
although my views on the subject of serving in the territories are different
from theirs - and they passed the information on to WATCH, which decided to
send representatives of their own to oversee what is happening at the
checkpoint near Taibeh. Naturally, I continued to take an interest in the girl
who was shot. I learned she is currently being held in the Neveh Tirza prison
after doctors in the hospital were forced to remove part of her intestines -
which shows that at least one bullet hit her in the stomach.

Peleg Levy

Tel Mond

Questions to the IDF Spokes-man: Are there orders to delay medical care until
authorization is received from the sapper that the injured suspects are not
carrying explosives on their person? Has an investigation been launched into
this case of shooting? If so, what are the findings and what steps, if any,
have been taken against the commander responsible, or the shooter?

There was no official response from the IDF Spokes-man.

Military sources had this to say: A brigade-level investigation conducted
after the shooting showed that the Palestinian girl reached checkpoint 105
near Taibeh with a drawn knife and advanced in the direction of the soldiers.
The soldiers called out to her to halt, shot in the air, and after she
continued to approach them, shot her when she was two to three meters away.
Her treatment and evacuation were carried out in accordance with proper
procedures: The soldiers at the checkpoint, acting beyond the call of duty,
called for a Magen David Adom (rather than a Red Crescent) ambulance to come
for her. Meanwhile, an army sapper at the site checked to see if she had any
explosives on her person.

After the sappers ruled that possibility out, the girl, who appeared to be not
of sound mind, was evacuated to the Meir Hospital in Kfar Sava, where she was
hospitalized and treated at the expense of the IDF, after which she was sent
for interrogation to the Shin Bet [security services]. After the fact, in
light of findings of the brigade-level investigation, the IDF sees no problem
in the soldiers' behavior and functioning.

Peleg Levy testifies that he heard three shots. How many shells hit the body
of the girl? From a letter sent by Physicians for Human Rights to the director
of the hospital, it became clear that Dr. Ahmed Massarwah, a member of the
organization's board, came to visit her with a statement relinquishing the
doctor-patient privilege, signed by the family. He said he had spoken to the
surgeon who had operated on her, and from him found out that "she was hit in
one of her kidneys and during the operation, part of her large intestine was
removed. Two bullets remained, one in the body cavity and one in the leg."
Gość: mirmil moze? IP: *.uBRgrb01.supercable.es 12.05.03, 00:38

i jeszcze ten komentarz na stronach wyborczej...

www1.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34219,1469430.html
choc moim zdaniem to raczej sie budzi polska, gdzie powoli sie ludzie
orientuja, ze krytyka krwawej polityki rzadu szarona to nie antysemityzm i
mozna otwarcie powiedziec, ze dzieje sie tam zle.
- Gość: A.D. Nie sadze... IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 01:02
  
  Gość portalu: mirmil napisał(a):
  
  > i jeszcze ten komentarz na stronach wyborczej...
  >
  >
  > www1.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34219,1469430.html
  > choc moim zdaniem to raczej sie budzi polska, gdzie powoli sie ludzie
  > orientuja, ze krytyka krwawej polityki rzadu szarona to nie antysemityzm i
  > mozna otwarcie powiedziec, ze dzieje sie tam zle.
  
  >>>Przeczytalem. Nie sadze, poniewaz te ...rodzynki w tym szambie potwierdzaja
  teze ze w kazdej grupie ludzkiej znajdzie sie kilku uczciwych, z jakimi mamy
  do czynienie w tych dwoch publikacjach. Chcielibysmy osadzac ludzi na
  podstawie tych, niekiedy nielicznych, ale przyzwoitych ludzi, ale niestety,
  gdy sie ma do czynienie z krajem, ktory zniewolil i przesladuje, z codziennymi
  morderstwami, inny narod juz przez 37 lat, to tutaj zadnych usprawiedliwien
  nie wolno akceptowac! Nalezy nazywac rzeczy po imieniu, niezaleznie od
  propagandowych i bezczelnych klamstw jakie sie powiela w imie
  usprawiedliwiania zla. Absolutnego ZLA!!! Niestety, tak sie przedstawia sprawa
  z Izraelem. Pytanie: czyzby Hitler byl ...lepszym zydem od tych w Izraelu
  obecnie, poniewaz nie pozwolil sie meczyc swoim ofiarom przez zbyt dlugi okres
  czasu?
  - Gość: mirmil chce mi sie spac IP: *.uBRgrb01.supercable.es 12.05.03, 01:16
    
    wiec powiem ci tylko, ze sie zgadzamy, choc ja raczej ostroznie podchodze do
    porownywania kogokolwiek z III rzesza.
    
    choc faktycznie zrobila to autorka tamtego artykulu i dosc jasno pokazala, ze
    co do eksterminacji palestynczykow to chodzi raczej o brak srodkow i swiatowego
    przyzwolenia, niz o brak chceci.
    
    dziwi mnie fakt, ze ludzie tak latwo ulegaja propagandzie izraelskiej i nie
    dostrzegaja calego zla, ktore sie tam dzieje.
    
    podejrzewam, ze znakomita wiekszosc ludzi, co ma takie przekonania, uwaza ze
    zydzi w jakims sensie nas bronia przed fundamentalizmem arabskim i sa awangarda
    zachodu wsrod arabskiej dziczy. chodzi wiec raczej o islamozercow niz o
    proszaronowcow, bo skoro sie juz jest szowinistow to sie pewnie w cichosci
    ducha nienawidzi i zydow. no ale coz, powod przyjecia takiej postawy jest
    wlasciwie obojetny, skoro rezultat to przyzwolenie na krzyczaca
    niesprawiedliwosc w palestynie.
    - Gość: A.D. Mam jeszcze z cztery godziny... IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 01:42
      
      Gość portalu: mirmil napisał(a):
      
      > wiec powiem ci tylko, ze sie zgadzamy, choc ja raczej ostroznie podchodze do
      > porownywania kogokolwiek z III rzesza.
      >
      > choc faktycznie zrobila to autorka tamtego artykulu i dosc jasno pokazala,
      ze
      > co do eksterminacji palestynczykow to chodzi raczej o brak srodkow i
      swiatowego
      >
      > przyzwolenia, niz o brak chceci.
      >
      > dziwi mnie fakt, ze ludzie tak latwo ulegaja propagandzie izraelskiej i nie
      > dostrzegaja calego zla, ktore sie tam dzieje.
      >
      > podejrzewam, ze znakomita wiekszosc ludzi, co ma takie przekonania, uwaza ze
      > zydzi w jakims sensie nas bronia przed fundamentalizmem arabskim i sa
      awangarda
      >
      > zachodu wsrod arabskiej dziczy. chodzi wiec raczej o islamozercow niz o
      > proszaronowcow, bo skoro sie juz jest szowinistow to sie pewnie w cichosci
      > ducha nienawidzi i zydow. no ale coz, powod przyjecia takiej postawy jest
      > wlasciwie obojetny, skoro rezultat to przyzwolenie na krzyczaca
      > niesprawiedliwosc w palestynie.
      
      >>Uczciwie nie moge powiedziec ze jestem przeciwny zydowm jako takim, ale i
      tez nie jestem przeciwny tym, ktorzy wyznaja islam. Niezaleznie od religii, to
      sa LUDZIE! Znalem wielu zydow, jak i mialem sposobnosc przyjrzec sie i Arabom.
      >> Nienawidze natomiast wszelkiego rodzaju okupacji, blokowania prawa do
      samostanowienia, czy tez pogwalcaniu suwerennosci panstwowej. Jestesmy
      swiadkami staczenia sie Swiata poniekad do epoki barbaryzmu, gdzie osiagniecia
      i dazenia ludzi do wzajemnego szacunku i zrozumienia, zostaja coraz bardziej
      spychane na margines, podczas gdy wprowadza sie ponownie 'prawo dzungli'.
      Ogromna machina propagandowa, w stosunku do ktorej Goebbels to szczeniak,
      przygotowuje cale narody do akceptacji wlasnie tego 'prawa dzungli' i to jest
      tragedia ludzka, ktora sie zarysowuje coraz wyrazniej. No, ale na ten temat
      moznaby dyskutowac w nieskonczonosc, prawda?
      >> Im wiecej czytam i analizuje, tym wiecej III Rzesza wydaje sie
      wzorcem...Zaryzykuje nawet teze (sadze ze wielu doszlo do tego wniosku przede
      mna...)ze fiansowanie Hitlera poprzez amerykanskich zydow, wlasnie mialo na
      celu ...przerzedzenie ich wspolwyznawcow, ktorzy rozpoczeli zalewac Zachod i
      obawiano sie ze to moze skonczyc sie szerszym wybuchem tzw.'antysemityzmu'.
      Ktory to 'antysemityzm' moglby byc przeszkoda w realizacji celow 'Syonizmu'.
      Mostrualne to i ohydne, ale nie sadze ze niemozliwe... Istnieja przeslanki w
      literaturze dotyczacej 'Syonizmu', ktore wydaja sie prowadzic do takich
      okropnych konkluzji. Calosc 'Syonizmu' jako ruchu, wskazuje ze tam cel zawsze
      uswiecal srodki!!! Jezeli wezmiesz pod uwage jaki to byl i jest
      teraz 'geszeft' i narzedzie propagandowe, ten 'Holocaust', to wydawaloby sie
      sie ze ta cyniczna ukladanka jakos dziwnie sie sklada tworzac takie wrazenie.
      >>Dobrej Nocy. Mam jeszcze caly wieczor przed soba.
v.c Mozesz podac zrodlo? Moze link? (nt) 12.05.03, 02:15
- Gość: A.D. Prosze bardzo... IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 02:28
  
  www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=291269&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Gość: A.D. Re: Czy zydzi sie budza? IP: *.mco.bellsouth.net 12.05.03, 18:35

)) Ci w Izraelu, ktorzy chcieliby pisac i mowic prawde o tej, skainad
tragicznej sytuacji tam, takze dla Izraelczykow, sa potepiani jako 'zdrajcy'.
Zdrajcy czego? Ludzkich wartosci? Dazenia do zaprzestania codziennych mordow
na dzieciach, kobietach i kogokolwiek, do kogo izraelscy zolnierze chca sobie
postrzelac? Jakie wartosci bedzie przedstawiala spolecznosc Izraela po takich
dlugoletnich wplywach absolutnego cynizmu na psychike tamtejszych obywateli?
No i na zrozumialy odwet ze strony okupowanych Palestynczykow?
)) Stanowisko, jakie na tych forach zajmuja zydzi, z pewnym, przyzwoitym
wyjatkiem, po prostu przeraza! Bowiem spoleczenstwo, w ktorym nie tylko
pozwala sie na zbrodnie, ale wrecz zacheca, jest bardzo chorym
spoleczenstwem!!! Czy istnieje jakakolwiek nadzieja ze zydzi chcieliby
uczciwego rozwiazania tego gordyjskiego wezla?

Gość portalu: A.D. napisał(a):

) ))Ciekawie donosi 'Haaretz'. Okazuje sie ze kilka zydowskich matek
) obserwowalo co sie dzieje na punktcie kontrolnym, gdzie sie
) zwykle ..dokopuje Palestynczykow, w zaleznosci od stopnia zezwierzecenia
) danego zolnierza w sluzbie swojego 'wybranego narodu'. Ku swojemu
) oslupieniu, Izraelki te byly swiadkami mordowania dzieci Palestynskich
) poprzez bohaterskich obroncow Izraela!!!
)
) Eye witnesses
)
) Two Israelis who witnessed Palestinians being shot by the IDF could not
) believe their eyes.
)
) In recent weeks, columnist Gideon Levy described two violent incidents in
) the territories in which a Palestinian boy was killed and a Palestinian girl
) was injured. In the wake of these articles, two eyewitnesses sent their
) testimonies on the circumstances of the shootings. Both raise serious
) questions concerning the behavior of IDF soldiers
)
)
)
) 1. Deliberate shooting at children
)
) I read Gideon Levy's article about the death of Omar Matar ("The 144th
) Child," Haaretz Magazine, April 11) following my own personal familiarity
) with the events that are described in it. As someone who personally
) witnessed the incident at the Qalandiyah checkpoint, on Friday, March 28, I
) can say that it was a traumatic, terrible, unimaginable experience. My
) girlfriend and I arrived at the site as members of WATCH, a group of Israeli
) women who oppose the occupation and who observe the checkpoints every day in
) the area of Jerusalem and the West Bank.
)
) This was not the first time we have seen what has become routine at the
) checkpoints: Children throwing stones at the fence near the Qalandiyah
) neighborhood and burning tires. Within a few minutes, a group of about 10
) soldiers advanced in the direction of the children and began shooting at
) them. Stunned by what we were seeing - soldiers armed with rifles, wearing
) helmets and flak jackets shooting at a small group of schoolchildren - we
) immediately called the Benjamin Brigade commander, who told us that the
) orders to the soldiers that we had seen were to shoot rubber bullets in the
) air. I told him that I could see with my own eyes that they were not
) shooting in the air, but that they were shooting right at the children and
) that it is known that rubber bullets (which are really steel bullets covered
) in rubber) can kill. Within a short time, an ambulance came to the
) neighborhood's main street and we learned that a boy, Omar Musa Matar, had
) been shot in the head.
)
) Our warnings to the army had fallen on deaf ears and failed to prevent
) Omar's death. This incident brings a number of difficult thoughts to mind -
) thoughts about the imperviousness, cruelty and total contempt for
) Palestinian lives, which is reflected in the fact that after years of
) intifada, the Israel Defense Forces and the police have not yet found ways
) to disperse civilian riots that comply with international law; about the
) soldiers armed with rifles facing off against little children with stones;
) about the horrific disparity between the orders given by senior commanders
) and the reality on the ground, in which each soldier acts as he sees fit in
) the full knowledge that he will not be tried for murder, abuse, robbery or
) any other trampling of the law and human rights.
)
) According to figures provided by B'Tselem [The Israeli Information Center
) for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories], the number of incidents in
) which the Military Police launches an investigation following the killing of
) innocents by soldiers is minimal, the manner in which the investigations are
) conducted ludicrous and the number of the convictions negligible.
) Consequently, I will not be surprised if the murderer is not brought to
) justice in this case either. This is not a trigger-happy soldier, but rather
) a group of soldiers acting like a murderous gang, storming a group of
) children that do not represent a genuine danger.
)
) Adi Dagan
)
) Herzliya
)
)
)
) Questions to the IDF Spokesman: In Gideon Levy's article about the incident,
) he quotes the eyewitness testimony of Walid Zawawi, the deputy director of
) the Qalandiyah camp for UNRWA, who said that a soldier shot the boy while in
) a kneeling position, that two bullets hit the boy, one in the head and the
) other in the neck, and that afterward, the soldiers also shot a Palestinian
) who tried to evacuate the wounded boy. The response of the IDF Spokesman at
) the time was: "The Military Police is investigating the incident." Has the
) investigation been concluded? What were the findings and what steps, if any,
) have been taken against the commander/shooter(s)?
)
)
)
) The response of the IDF Spokesman: The investigation is still ongoing.
)
) 2. No danger to the soldiers
)
) In the article about the Tul Karm refugee camp (Haaretz Magazine, March 28),
) Gideon Levy mentioned a 15-year-old girl "who apparently tried to stab a
) soldier" at a checkpoint. She was shot and "has been lying wounded in Meir
) Hospital, handcuffed, for a few weeks now." On February 20 of this year, I
) was serving in the reserves at the checkpoint between Taibeh and Tul Karm.
) At about four o'clock in the afternoon, I went up to my post. About an hour
) and a half afterward, a girl of about 15 arrived, walked behind me and
) continued in the direction of a group of soldiers at the main area of the
) checkpoint. She stopped and at a certain point, took out a knife and stood
) without moving for quite a while. True, she did wave the knife in the air,
) but what she did was far from endangering the soldiers.
)
) The commander of the checkpoint, who arrived meanwhile, carried out the
) proper procedure for arresting a suspect and shot at her from a few meters
) away. The procedure calls for a warning shot in the air; if the suspect
) still does not stop, shots may be fired at the the suspect's legs and only
) after that at the suspect's torso. I heard three shots. After that, for a
) long while, she lay there bleeding and crying, "I want my mother." It was
) quite a difficult sight to see. An ambulance that arrived was not allowed to
) approach her until IDF sappers had finished checking her.
)
) I have been doing my reserve duty in the territories since April 1988. I
) have accumulated quite a bit of experience, and this time I decided to use
) my own judgment during my work at the checkpoint. When I saw older people
) coming to ask for permission to go through to visit their children in
) Taibeh, or mixed couples, I let them go through. My behavior caused some
) disagreement and consequently, the subject was brought out in the open. I
) explained that I was not working from a particularly leftist position, but
) rather from a human point of view.
)
) A number of things should be made clear about the shooter. The officer that
) shot

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