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Poultry boys

05.05.06, 11:49
I do not know if any of you have the same feeling, but when I listed to the
news this morning I realised that the nightmare has become true - Lepper vice
prime minister and Giertych minister of information!!!
Where is the emergency exit?
Obserwuj wątek
    • usenetposts Re: Poultry boys 05.05.06, 14:36
      Lepper's not such a bad guy inside, you know.

      I found him very pleasant when I met him a few years ago.

      I'm sure the country will be safe in his hands.
      • sobieski010 Re: Poultry boys 05.05.06, 14:50
        Dave, I hope that was a joke...
        • usenetposts Re: Poultry boys 05.05.06, 14:57
          There's a new tradition on this forum, and that is that every 8,500th post
          shall contain an element of tongue-in-cheek.
          • sobieski010 Re: Poultry boys 05.05.06, 20:07
            I was more hoping for a 100 PLN coupon to be used in any Warsaw pub, but this
            comes close smile
            • nasza_maggie Re: Poultry boys 10.05.06, 14:52
              You know, it is all a bit of a joke with these guys.

              Somehow, I cannot help but think Kaczynski just would not take the risk of
              putting these guzs in such high places, only to watch them make idiots of
              themsleves. At a cost of his reputation.

              As they have reached so far, the only way now is down. But to be honest I dont
              think the twins would experiment in such a way and if they are then its going
              to end in distaster.
              • usenetposts Re: Poultry boys 10.05.06, 19:16
                nasza_maggie napisała:

                > You know, it is all a bit of a joke with these guys.
                >
                > Somehow, I cannot help but think Kaczynski just would not take the risk of
                > putting these guzs in such high places, only to watch them make idiots of
                > themsleves. At a cost of his reputation.
                >
                > As they have reached so far, the only way now is down. But to be honest I
                dont
                > think the twins would experiment in such a way and if they are then its going
                > to end in distaster.

                What choice did they have? Better these guys than thore loother Tuthk.
                • nasza_maggie Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 00:57
                  I really have to disagree on that one.
                  I really feel Tusk such a much more competent team than Lepper and his bunch of
                  cronies who only joined the party to get absolution from being
                  put in court for defrauding banks.
                • firemouse Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 13:00
                  Well, they can even best blokes in the universe, but as far as we discuss
                  governing the country, I feel much safer if I am ruled by unpleasent and rude
                  guy who just knows what is he doing.

                  We need professionals, that's all.

                  You ask what choice did Duckhursts have? A plenty. Like resigning for ensuring
                  better future. Or talking to PO instead of throwing insults. They are just
                  greedy for power and the rest is just result. They want to rule Stalin-style.

                  And now I am reading that Wildstone is going to be president of public TV. Oh
                  come on. I want this job too. I am certainly not less competent (it's really
                  hard to be) but I want this money and power maybe even more, what qualifies me.
                • sobieski010 Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 13:26
                  I agree that Tusk is one of the few decent politicians currently in Poland.

                  What we now have is a government composed of Opus Dei, a populist with a violent
                  and criminal past, and a party which thinks that Dmowski's Endacja really had
                  great ideas. Very very scary all of this.
                  Add to this the LPR Hitlerjugend and its attacks on gays, Radio Marija...
                  Disaster!
                  I have a friend who is a journalist for Radio Polskie - she already is now
                  complaining about growing censorship.
                  • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 14:52
                    sobieski010 napisał:

                    > I agree that Tusk is one of the few decent politicians currently in Poland.

                    Tusk should consider indulging himself in larger quantities of 'sour grapes'.

                    > What we now have is a government composed of Opus Dei, a populist with a
                    > violent and criminal past, and a party which thinks that Dmowski's Endacja
                    > really had great ideas. Very very scary all of this.

                    Again, were the Stalinist members of SLD any better with their strong
                    affiliations to the NKVD and former communists? NKVD were criminals in the
                    lowest sense. Now 'that' was scary.

                    > Add to this the LPR Hitlerjugend and its attacks on gays, Radio Marija...
                    > Disaster! I have a friend who is a journalist for Radio Polskie - she already
                    > is now complaining about growing censorship.

                    Back to some basic comparisons again: Hitler versus Trotskyites, RM
                    versus 'Nie', and gays versus straights. You are telling us nothing new. The
                    same old pro-liberal anti-Catholic ranting and raving. Is it only hot air you
                    are venting, or are these common frustrations shared by many liberals that
                    Christians are now in power in Poland? Hard to swallow, isn't it? Oh, the pain,
                    how it hurts! Take an aspirin and call Dr. Religa in the morning.
                    • firemouse Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 17:24
                      It's not about Christians, at least for me.

                      The pis guys just don't have a clue about governing, they are just about power
                      and money. Their only idea is total control of everything and a country Orwell-
                      or Huxley-style. This leads nowhere as we all know and people need freedom to be
                      more productive and generate economy growth.

                      And don't mix pro-liberal with anti-Catholic. There may be few, but does not
                      justify the statement.
                  • russh Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 14:56
                    I know very little about Polish politics or politicians, despite being very
                    interested in the general subject, due to my inability to understand Polish.

                    What I do manage to hear and read (maybe from biased sources) is frightening.

                    I get the impression these guys are social control freaks, incapable economic
                    managers, and unadulterated popularists. Are my impressions wrong?
                    • nasza_maggie Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 17:36
                      christians?!


                      ROTFL! EJ!! smile)))))))))))
                      • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 19:13
                        nasza_maggie napisała:

                        > christians?!
                        >
                        >
                        > ROTFL! EJ!! smile)))))))))))

                        Of course Maggie May!
                        smile
                        Fight fire with fire...fight sarcasm with sarcasm.
                        • sobieski010 Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 20:31
                          Sarcasm as a way to camouflage full-blooded fascism. I do not know which kind of
                          christianity you adhere to (the LPR/PIS kind?) but surely not my kind of
                          catholicism.
                          It escapes you that you can be liberal, anti-PIS and Christian.
                          Roman Dmowski would have been very proud of you.
                          • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 22:10
                            sobieski010 napisał:

                            > Sarcasm as a way to camouflage full-blooded fascism.

                            So, is that why you are being sarcastic, to camouflage your fascist views? And
                            who is camouflaging identities on this forum...not me. You obviously have alot
                            to hide.


                            > I do not know which kind of christianity you adhere to (the LPR/PIS kind?)
                            > but surely not my kind of catholicism.

                            The Catholic Bible kind. I have no idea who you are, and what you really
                            practice. You came out of nowhere on this forum to provoke anti-Catholic
                            feelings. You instigated an argument with me on a previous posting, and falsely
                            accused me. I kindly asked Dave to scrap your offensive post. Now, you have
                            started your nonsense once again. I answered your provocation, and this is what
                            you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is really
                            allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?

                            > It escapes you that you can be liberal, anti-PIS and Christian.
                            > Roman Dmowski would have been very proud of you.

                            Are you a devout follower of Hitler, Stalin, Trotsky, Berman, or Dmowski? Sure
                            seems like you adhere to at least one of their philosophies. You must either
                            have a fetish or mental obsession with Dmowski, mentioning him so often as you
                            do on this forum.
                            • minimus Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 22:33
                              > you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is
                              really
                              > allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?

                              Sounds to me Eugene that you want some censorship here rather than moderating.
                              • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 22:50
                                minimus napisał:

                                > > you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is
                                > really
                                > > allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?
                                >
                                > Sounds to me Eugene that you want some censorship here rather than moderating.

                                Dave has mentioned on a previous occasion that if anyone felt offended by
                                certain material being posted on this forum, then we (the offended) should
                                promptly inform him. This so called 'sobieski010' has falsely accused me
                                before, and has done so again. It's not the first time Catholic bashing has
                                taken place here. It seems to be in style on this forum, with nobody lodging
                                complaints.
                                • russh Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 22:57
                                  Where was the accusation this time EJ? I've read all of the posts, and cannot
                                  find one (maybe the nearest was your's).

                                  Where was the anti Catholic bashing? I cannot see it, although I'm quite happy
                                  to start if you want.
                                  • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 23:33
                                    russh napisał:

                                    > Where was the accusation this time EJ? I've read all of the posts, and cannot
                                    > find one (maybe the nearest was your's).
                                    >
                                    > Where was the anti Catholic bashing? I cannot see it, although I'm quite happy
                                    > to start if you want.

                                    When similarities are made to the current goverment and the "Endecja" (In 1927
                                    Dmowski who founded the Endecja saw Catholicism as an essential part of Polish
                                    identity. Dmowski saw all minorities as weakening agents within the nation that
                                    needed to be purged.), for those that know history, sobieski010 was implying
                                    that the current government are a bunch of radical patriotic Catholics without
                                    respect to minorities. The meaning in his statement is there. Do you see it now
                                    Russh? I realize that you would be quite happy to start in defense of
                                    sobieski010's views, and I'm absolutely positive that nobody on this forum will
                                    oppose you. From what I have seen since joining this forum, attacks on the
                                    Catholic church in Poland are highly tolerated here.
                            • russh Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 22:44
                              EJ, you seem to be very pro this current government. Why? What have they done,
                              or proposed to do, that is positive?
                              • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 11.05.06, 23:14
                                russh napisał:

                                > EJ, you seem to be very pro this current government. Why? What have they done,
                                > or proposed to do, that is positive?

                                Russh, I wouldn't say I am "pro" this government, but more satisfied to see
                                they have partially eliminated former communist influence. And being a Catholic
                                myself, I am glad to see practicing Catholics making the political decisions in
                                Poland. There is nothing wrong with that. And for now, that is good enough for
                                me. You do realize, they finally formed a majority coalition, so now lets take
                                the next step and wait-and-see what they are capable of doing before throwing
                                accusations at them. What I do find agitating is the constant media bashing of
                                the current coalition, usually instigated by individuals that have no respect
                                for the Catholic church in Poland. As soon as someone defends the Catholic
                                church here, they are immediately tainted as fascists, populists, and other
                                anti-this and that. Low balling cheap shots. It's not necessary. Politicians
                                such as Rokita and Tusk constantly harbor sour grapes because the elections
                                didn't result to their liking. Ok, Russh, what has the current government done
                                that is negative or harmful? Ever since the elections, the financial markets,
                                zloty, and foreign investors (excellent litmus tests) have all been positive.
                                Nobody is running away from their investments because of the current
                                government. They do wish to have better relations with Russia and Germany, and
                                emphasize more fairness in European energy policies. Now that a majority does
                                exist, they can start formulating some concrete policies. Let's see what they
                                can do.
                                • minimus Re: Poultry boys 12.05.06, 00:24
                                  > Ok, Russh, what has the current government done
                                  > that is negative or harmful? Ever since the elections, the financial markets,
                                  > zloty, and foreign investors (excellent litmus tests) have all been positive.

                                  And what positive things have they done so far that supposedly were so good for
                                  the economy? All the positive developments are not because of the govt but
                                  despite of it. Poland still gets huge credit just because it is a EU country
                                  now. Foreign investors are deffo NEGATIVE about the present govt. And it is at
                                  least partly a fascist government. You have heard of Giertych and his storm
                                  troopers?
                                  • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 12.05.06, 08:54
                                    minimus napisał:

                                    > And what positive things have they done so far that supposedly were so good
                                    > for the economy?

                                    I have answered that question already in detail in the previous posting
                                    of: "11.05.06, 23:14".

                                    > All the positive developments are not because of the govt but despite of it.
                                    > Poland still gets huge credit just because it is a EU country now. Foreign
                                    > investors are deffo NEGATIVE about the present govt.

                                    Of course investors aren't injecting their money into the Polish government
                                    either 'due to' and 'despite' the current government. Most importantly, they
                                    aren't leaving the country or reducing investment because of the current
                                    government, and that in itself is a positive sign. I myself have invested
                                    enourmous amounts of money into the Polish economy, and I'm very satisfied with
                                    the current environment and have no plans to pull out. Many investors agree.
                                    Any shrewd investor would 'jump ship' immediately if the current political
                                    situation was truly a threat. It hasn't happened.

                                    > And it is at least partly a fascist government. You have heard of Giertych
                                    > and his storm troopers?

                                    Sure, so what did they do, protest a gay parade? Very trivial matter. Have they
                                    murdered anyone, or severely crippled somebody for no reason at all, or robbed
                                    them of their lifetime possessions? Do you know the history of communism? I'm
                                    sure you do, and it has been mentioned several times here. They killed (Katyn,
                                    etc.) and sent thousands of Polish Roman Catholics to Siberia. In 1932 and
                                    1933, they starved to death in an artificial famine, millions of peasants in
                                    the Ukraine. Now that makes a difference. When SLD was in power, you should
                                    read about some of the candidates backgrounds, and their families as well. You
                                    will see who were members of the communist party, the NKVD, and much more.
                                    These are individuals that followed the philosophy of communism, murderers that
                                    ruled Poland with an iron fist from 1945 to 1989, and many still wielding
                                    enormous power in Poland today. The accusations against Giertych are 'peanuts'
                                    compared to the crimes committed against the Polish nation by communists.
                                    • ejmarkow Re: Correction 12.05.06, 08:57
                                      ejmarkow said, "Of course investors aren't injecting their money into the
                                      Polish government..."

                                      Should be: '...into the Polish economy...'
                                      • nasza_maggie Guys...... 12.05.06, 09:33
                                        As Ive not been around too much lately too get INTO the discussions
                                        My view is:

                                        As far as I'm concerned, the current coalition is a shambles.
                                        And I am highly dissapointed, as, as usual, the Kaczynskis have managed to
                                        divide people rather than bring them together. Which many Poles as myslef, were
                                        hoping for after all the SLD malarchy.
                                        If they were as rightseous as they fooled us to be, they wouldnt be holding on
                                        to this power so strongly.
                                        Anyway, there is a theory about short mensmile)))


                                        As a Catholic, I think they are making idiots of themselves and many others who
                                        are also of Catholic faith. Not only that, I think their approach is rather
                                        archaic.

                                        All those trips to Radio Maryja etc I found really pathetic.
                                        Why didn't they all make as many trips to Radio Józef, hm???
                                        What, Radio MAryja has bigger popularity and listeners so we go where the money
                                        is? And thats NOT being populist???



                                        Has anyone EVER bothered to actually LISTEN to Radio Maryja?? Has anyone heard
                                        the indoctrination that goes on there??? The antis-semitism amongst other
                                        insults.
                                        It's an embarassment!

                                        So this 'if we can't beat them, join them' appropach is jst well, silly..

                                        And what is really annoying is the message being sent out - that they
                                        represent all Poles and their views. Well, they don't.

                                        Now, to finish off. I will point out that I am glad the commies are getting a
                                        kick up the backside although I think the problem is so deep rooted it will
                                        take decades. Why?
                                        Because the Mazowiecki government should have done what the Czechs did and ban
                                        the PZPR, or their strongest members from politics for many years. But they
                                        chose differently, today we see the effects.

                                        I for one was hoping that PiS would sort out the Law and the Courts. And
                                        they've employed Lepper to help them do it. Well done (!).
                                        Now the Samoobrona members who are in deep debt and own banks thousands feel
                                        completely free of any fault. So much so they kick out any bailiff that claims
                                        their property!

                                        It's all just TOO ironic for most of us!!!

                                        Much more, the views if Poles in the small cities differ largely from those in
                                        the big cities. It's what they call 'Polska A and Polska B', unfotunately.
                                        Many of us were hoping that PiS would help Poles get rid of this term...and it
                                        seems it won't happen....

                                        Finally, please don't argue and get so emotionalsmile I'm sure we all have
                                        different views but still we can stay friendssmile
                                        Politics is a dirty game, let's just not get involved in the mess TOO much smile))

                                        Also please remember, that this nation only ever has a COMMON view and comes
                                        together at times of deep crisis. On any other day, forget itsmile)))
                                        • nasza_maggie btw 12.05.06, 09:39
                                          When looking at the situation I can't help but remember the Genesis Song
                                          'Land of Confusion' smile)))))))))
                                        • ejmarkow Re: Guys.....and Gals 12.05.06, 13:48
                                          nasza_maggie napisała:

                                          > As Ive not been around too much lately too get INTO the discussions
                                          > My view is:
                                          >
                                          > As far as I'm concerned, the current coalition is a shambles.
                                          > And I am highly dissapointed, as, as usual, the Kaczynskis have managed to
                                          > divide people rather than bring them together. Which many Poles as myslef,
                                          > were hoping for after all the SLD malarchy.

                                          Divide? They just formed a coalition with two other parties, who share totally
                                          different philosophies. I hope the coalition successfully implements policies
                                          that most Poles will consider to be positive, as well has maintain good
                                          relations with the rest of the world.

                                          > If they were as rightseous as they fooled us to be, they wouldnt be holding
                                          > on to this power so strongly.

                                          Again, it practically boils down to the choice of "the lesser of two evils"
                                          (PIS-LPR-SBRNA vs SLD-PO). I opt for right-leaning Catholics as opposed to
                                          leftist liberal communists anytime.

                                          > Anyway, there is a theory about short mensmile)))

                                          Maggie, when are you going to show us the beauty and elegant form you allegedly
                                          possess? smile))) Are you similar to Jola Kwasniewska, or Kaczynski's wife?

                                          > As a Catholic, I think they are making idiots of themselves and many others
                                          > who are also of Catholic faith. Not only that, I think their approach is
                                          > rather archaic.

                                          As a Catholic, I feel the leftist-liberal oriented media are intentionally
                                          making fools of them. It's bloody obvious. Can you describe exactly which
                                          approach you consider to be archaic?

                                          > All those trips to Radio Maryja etc I found really pathetic.
                                          > Why didn't they all make as many trips to Radio Józef, hm???
                                          > What, Radio MAryja has bigger popularity and listeners so we go where the
                                          > money is? And thats NOT being populist???

                                          Yes, agreed, the trips to Radio Maryja were unnecessary. Then again, they are
                                          playing a political card that has paid off for them.

                                          > Has anyone EVER bothered to actually LISTEN to Radio Maryja?? Has anyone
                                          > heard the indoctrination that goes on there??? The antis-semitism amongst
                                          > other insults. It's an embarassment!

                                          I must admit, I have never listened to RM not once, due to my average Polish
                                          language abilities. However, I did hear their broadcast on a PKS bus one
                                          day...it was just a harmless mass in Polish.

                                          > So this 'if we can't beat them, join them' appropach is jst well, silly..

                                          Not everyone that has positive opinions about the current coalition supports RM
                                          Maggie. I certainly don't.

                                          > And what is really annoying is the message being sent out - that they
                                          > represent all Poles and their views. Well, they don't.

                                          Isn't that the annoying habit which is most common in every aspect of media? GW
                                          also likes to think it's opinion is the most accurate. Nobody is an angel or
                                          saint when it comes to media.

                                          To be fair (not in defense of RM...I stress that), as I mentioned numerous
                                          times in previous postings, "Nie" also falls into the same category that RM is
                                          in. The former enjoys frequent Anti-Catholic remarks, the latter frequent Anti-
                                          Semitic remarks. I think both should be thrown to the dogs.

                                          > Now, to finish off. I will point out that I am glad the commies are getting a
                                          > kick up the backside although I think the problem is so deep rooted it will
                                          > take decades. Why? Because the Mazowiecki government should have done what
                                          > the Czechs did and ban the PZPR, or their strongest members from politics for
                                          > many years. But they chose differently, today we see the effects.

                                          Agreed Maggie, however, better late than never, and it certainly isn't too
                                          late.

                                          > I for one was hoping that PiS would sort out the Law and the Courts. And
                                          > they've employed Lepper to help them do it. Well done (!).
                                          > Now the Samoobrona members who are in deep debt and own banks thousands feel
                                          > completely free of any fault. So much so they kick out any bailiff that
                                          > claims their property!

                                          I haven't heard one story about Samoobrona's debts to the banks? Can you
                                          provide me a link (preferably in English) on that subject? Sounds interesting.

                                          > It's all just TOO ironic for most of us!!!

                                          Now are you trying to speak for 'most' of us. smile Remember your previous
                                          quote: "...that they represent all Poles and their views...".

                                          > Much more, the views if Poles in the small cities differ largely from those
                                          > in the big cities. It's what they call 'Polska A and Polska B', unfotunately.
                                          > Many of us were hoping that PiS would help Poles get rid of this term...and
                                          > it seems it won't happen....

                                          I 'currently reside' in Polska B (Małopolska) for only 4 years, however, I am
                                          born and raised for most of my life in one of the largest cities in the world
                                          (New York City). Again, and I support the radical Catholics over the rotten
                                          Communists anytime. So, I must be an exception to the rule then.

                                          > Finally, please don't argue and get so emotionalsmile I'm sure we all have
                                          > different views but still we can stay friendssmile Politics is a dirty game,
                                          > let's just not get involved in the mess TOO much smile))

                                          Agreed! Just because an individual supports a certain political party,
                                          shouldn't be tainted as anti-minority, or a fascist. No personal attacks on a
                                          participant of this forum please. Only in defense, will I personally attack
                                          somebody when they attempt to defame my character. Again, I wish it not go even
                                          that far.

                                          > Also please remember, that this nation only ever has a COMMON view and comes
                                          > together at times of deep crisis. On any other day, forget itsmile)))

                                          I believe that applies to all nations, as we are all unique individuals with
                                          our very own opinions, nobody alike.
                                          • nasza_maggie Re: Guys.....and Gals 12.05.06, 16:30
                                            ejmarkow napisał:

                                            > nasza_maggie napisała:
                                            >
                                            > > As Ive not been around too much lately too get INTO the discussions
                                            > > My view is:
                                            > >
                                            > > As far as I'm concerned, the current coalition is a shambles.
                                            > > And I am highly dissapointed, as, as usual, the Kaczynskis have managed t
                                            > o
                                            > > divide people rather than bring them together. Which many Poles as myslef
                                            > ,
                                            > > were hoping for after all the SLD malarchy.
                                            >
                                            > Divide? They just formed a coalition with two other parties, who share
                                            totally
                                            > different philosophies.

                                            \yes and lets see how long that will last and how much sense it will make to
                                            your avarage Pole.
                                            I hope the coalition successfully implements policies
                                            > that most Poles will consider to be positive, as well has maintain good
                                            > relations with the rest of the world.

                                            You are an optimist.

                                            >
                                            > > If they were as rightseous as they fooled us to be, they wouldnt be holdi
                                            > ng
                                            > > on to this power so strongly.

                                            I think the opposite.

                                            >
                                            > Again, it practically boils down to the choice of "the lesser of two evils"
                                            > (PIS-LPR-SBRNA vs SLD-PO). I opt for right-leaning Catholics as opposed to
                                            > leftist liberal communists anytime.

                                            I don't think it is as simple as that. And I don't think its a good idea
                                            dividing people into commies/liberals. Its a common mistake today to fall into
                                            that trap of saying that anyone who is liberal is a Commie.
                                            >
                                            > > Anyway, there is a theory about short mensmile)))
                                            >
                                            > Maggie, when are you going to show us the beauty and elegant form you
                                            allegedly
                                            >
                                            > possess? smile))) Are you similar to Jola Kwasniewska, or Kaczynski's wife?

                                            No I am similar to that actress Krystyna Feldman, I told you already.
                                            >
                                            > > As a Catholic, I think they are making idiots of themselves and many othe
                                            > rs
                                            > > who are also of Catholic faith. Not only that, I think their approach is
                                            > > rather archaic.
                                            >
                                            > As a Catholic, I feel the leftist-liberal oriented media are intentionally
                                            > making fools of them. It's bloody obvious. Can you describe exactly which
                                            > approach you consider to be archaic?

                                            Does that apply to Tygodnik Powszechny?
                                            The approach that Poles only want one way of thinking and governing.
                                            >
                                            > > All those trips to Radio Maryja etc I found really pathetic.
                                            > > Why didn't they all make as many trips to Radio Józef, hm???
                                            > > What, Radio MAryja has bigger popularity and listeners so we go where the
                                            >
                                            > > money is? And thats NOT being populist???
                                            >
                                            > Yes, agreed, the trips to Radio Maryja were unnecessary. Then again, they are
                                            > playing a political card that has paid off for them.

                                            Has it...

                                            >
                                            > > Has anyone EVER bothered to actually LISTEN to Radio Maryja?? Has anyone
                                            > > heard the indoctrination that goes on there??? The antis-semitism amongst
                                            > > other insults. It's an embarassment!
                                            >
                                            > I must admit, I have never listened to RM not once, due to my average Polish
                                            > language abilities. However, I did hear their broadcast on a PKS bus one
                                            > day...it was just a harmless mass in Polish.

                                            Most masses are harmlesssmile
                                            >
                                            > > So this 'if we can't beat them, join them' appropach is jst well, silly..
                                            >
                                            > Not everyone that has positive opinions about the current coalition supports
                                            RM
                                            >
                                            > Maggie. I certainly don't.
                                            >
                                            > > And what is really annoying is the message being sent out - that they
                                            > > represent all Poles and their views. Well, they don't.
                                            >
                                            > Isn't that the annoying habit which is most common in every aspect of media?
                                            GW
                                            >
                                            > also likes to think it's opinion is the most accurate. Nobody is an angel or
                                            > saint when it comes to media.

                                            TP as above.
                                            I dont read GW. My contacts with it apply soley to using their fora.

                                            >
                                            > To be fair (not in defense of RM...I stress that), as I mentioned numerous
                                            > times in previous postings, "Nie" also falls into the same category that RM
                                            is
                                            > in. The former enjoys frequent Anti-Catholic remarks, the latter frequent
                                            Anti-
                                            > Semitic remarks. I think both should be thrown to the dogs.

                                            Yes but NIE is a silly paper with not so much readership and anyone with half a
                                            brain knows that Urban is an idiot.

                                            >
                                            > > Now, to finish off. I will point out that I am glad the commies are getti
                                            > ng a
                                            > > kick up the backside although I think the problem is so deep rooted it wi
                                            > ll
                                            > > take decades. Why? Because the Mazowiecki government should have done wha
                                            > t
                                            > > the Czechs did and ban the PZPR, or their strongest members from politics
                                            > for
                                            > > many years. But they chose differently, today we see the effects.
                                            >
                                            > Agreed Maggie, however, better late than never, and it certainly isn't too
                                            > late.

                                            In some aspects it is. It is now so far gone and so deep rooted *corruption
                                            wise, that the new generation of politicians has also been somewhat 'infected'
                                            with the old attitude.
                                            If we cut them off at the cord, it would be different now, Im sure.

                                            >
                                            > > I for one was hoping that PiS would sort out the Law and the Courts. And
                                            > > they've employed Lepper to help them do it. Well done (!).
                                            > > Now the Samoobrona members who are in deep debt and own banks thousands f
                                            > eel
                                            > > completely free of any fault. So much so they kick out any bailiff that
                                            > > claims their property!
                                            >
                                            > I haven't heard one story about Samoobrona's debts to the banks? Can you
                                            > provide me a link (preferably in English) on that subject? Sounds interesting.

                                            Well, Im not surprised. Especially they won't brag about it to the foreign
                                            press.
                                            Many of thei members or ex members, have many credits they havent paid off and
                                            now you cannot do anything to these people because they have 'immunity'.
                                            >
                                            > > It's all just TOO ironic for most of us!!!
                                            >
                                            > Now are you trying to speak for 'most' of us. smile Remember your previous
                                            > quote: "...that they represent all Poles and their views...".

                                            You do tend to get patronising sometimes but I forgive yousmile
                                            >
                                            > > Much more, the views if Poles in the small cities differ largely from tho
                                            > se
                                            > > in the big cities. It's what they call 'Polska A and Polska B', unfotunat
                                            > ely.
                                            > > Many of us were hoping that PiS would help Poles get rid of this term...a
                                            > nd
                                            > > it seems it won't happen....
                                            >
                                            > I 'currently reside' in Polska B (Małopolska) for only 4 years,
                                            Taht can be seena as TOO long smile

                                            however, I am
                                            > born and raised for most of my life in one of the largest cities in the world
                                            > (New York City). Again, and I support the radical Catholics over the rotten
                                            > Communists anytime. So, I must be an exception to the rule then.

                                            I think you may be smile

                                            >
                                            > > Finally, please don't argue and get so emotionalsmile I'm sure we all have
                                            > > different views but still we can stay friendssmile Politics is a dirty game,
                                            > > let's just not get involved in the mess TOO much smile))
                                            >
                                            > Agreed! Just because an individual supports a certain political party,
                                            > shouldn't be tainted as anti-minority, or a fascist. No personal attacks on a
                                            > participant of this forum please. Only in defense, will I personally attack
                                            > somebody when they attempt to defame my character. Again, I wish it not go
                                            even
                                            >
                                            > that far.
                                            >
                                            > > Also please remember, that this nation only ever has a COMMON view and co
                                            > mes
                                            > 
                                      • usenetposts Re: Correction 12.05.06, 10:35
                                        ejmarkow napisał:

                                        > ejmarkow said, "Of course investors aren't injecting their money into the
                                        > Polish government..."
                                        >
                                        > Should be: '...into the Polish economy...'

                                        That's what you might call "much of a muchness", given the current system of
                                        taxation.
                                    • minimus Re: Poultry boys 12.05.06, 09:50
                                      sorry, a pointless discussion. You just don't know what you are talking about.

                                      Bye
                            • usenetposts Re: Poultry boys 12.05.06, 10:32
                              ejmarkow napisał:

                              > sobieski010 napisał:
                              >
                              > > Sarcasm as a way to camouflage full-blooded fascism.
                              >
                              > So, is that why you are being sarcastic, to camouflage your fascist views?
                              And
                              > who is camouflaging identities on this forum...not me. You obviously have
                              alot
                              > to hide.
                              >
                              >
                              > > I do not know which kind of christianity you adhere to (the LPR/PIS kind?
                              > )
                              > > but surely not my kind of catholicism.
                              >
                              > The Catholic Bible kind. I have no idea who you are, and what you really
                              > practice. You came out of nowhere on this forum to provoke anti-Catholic
                              > feelings. You instigated an argument with me on a previous posting, and
                              falsely
                              >
                              > accused me. I kindly asked Dave to scrap your offensive post. Now, you have
                              > started your nonsense once again. I answered your provocation, and this is
                              what
                              >
                              > you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is
                              really
                              > allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?

                              I am watching this, although I was away yesterday. People are allowed to hold
                              their opinions and express them, but I would like to take this opportunity to
                              remind all parties to be polite to everyone else, and not make personal slurs.

                              I am more right wing than most people here, and not a Catholic but a
                              conservative Protestant, but I am happy for leftist people to express their
                              views as long as they keep to certain standards of debate. Let us assume good
                              will on the side of the other person and actually try to like the other person
                              if we only can.

                              For instance, I have very different views to Ianek, but I always enjoy his work
                              on this forum.

                              Let's try to debate hotly, but debate issues rather than the charcters of our
                              fellow internauts.

                              If people do start to become personally abusive - and Sobieski calling people
                              fascists is "na pograniczu faulu" although I personally get call a fascist
                              quite a lot and it doesn't bother me that much, then I might have to start
                              blocking posts, but I don't want to do it if I can help it.
                              • kylie1 Re: Poultry boys 13.05.06, 01:23
                                Good post, Dave. I appreciate that.

                                We all have opinions about one thing or another but I agree that personal
                                attacks on other forum members should place that person on a moderated status.
                                If someone disagrees with someone else's opinion and feels strongly enough to
                                express an opposing view point, why not do it in a courteous manner? Why does
                                it have to be jabs and insults?

                                You know, Dave, the more I read about the politics in Poland ( and I am still
                                very confused about all this), the more I ask myself this: "Have we ever had a
                                governmnet in Canada that we were really happy with?" I don't think so. In
                                fact, I know so. And even though the vast majority of Canadians are happy with
                                Canada, we never ever stop complaining about our politicians - be it liberals,
                                NDP-ers or conservatives. They never seem to commit to programs, there is
                                always a maltitude of scandals, never ending health care problems, immigration
                                issues...you name it. It's almost in our blood to complain. But the clash of
                                opinions does not have to lead to insults. That's just life.

                                Do people in Poland really think that other countries are that much different?
                                Correct me if I am wrong, Dave, but I think people in Poland have this strange
                                feeling of inferiority in terms of their status in the world. We are really not
                                that different. Poland has so many wonderful things that we don't have and and
                                never will. Why is everyone so unhappy all the time? I find this terribly
                                depressing and drab.

                                Anyway, that's it for my bellyaching.Have a great week-end!

                                smile kylie
                                • usenetposts Re: Poultry boys 13.05.06, 02:11
                                  kylie1 napisała:

                                  > Good post, Dave. I appreciate that.

                                  Thanks for that, Kylie.

                                  >
                                  > We all have opinions about one thing or another but I agree that personal
                                  > attacks on other forum members should place that person on a moderated
                                  status.

                                  I think if opinions are validly held it ought to be possible to argue them
                                  without making personal remarks about the other person in the discussion.

                                  > If someone disagrees with someone else's opinion and feels strongly enough to
                                  > express an opposing view point, why not do it in a courteous manner? Why does
                                  > it have to be jabs and insults?

                                  People probably think it adds to the entertainment value, but this is not the
                                  Jerry Springer show.


                                  > You know, Dave, the more I read about the politics in Poland ( and I am still
                                  > very confused about all this), the more I ask myself this: "Have we ever had
                                  a
                                  > governmnet in Canada that we were really happy with?" I don't think so. In
                                  > fact, I know so. And even though the vast majority of Canadians are happy with
                                  >
                                  > Canada, we never ever stop complaining about our politicians - be it
                                  liberals,
                                  > NDP-ers or conservatives. They never seem to commit to programs, there is
                                  > always a maltitude of scandals, never ending health care problems,
                                  immigration
                                  > issues...you name it. It's almost in our blood to complain. But the clash of
                                  > opinions does not have to lead to insults. That's just life.
                                  >
                                  > Do people in Poland really think that other countries are that much different?
                                  >
                                  > Correct me if I am wrong, Dave, but I think people in Poland have this
                                  strange
                                  > feeling of inferiority in terms of their status in the world. We are really
                                  not
                                  >
                                  > that different. Poland has so many wonderful things that we don't have and
                                  and
                                  > never will. Why is everyone so unhappy all the time? I find this terribly
                                  > depressing and drab.

                                  That's a very valid point, and Norman Davies didn't help matters recently when
                                  he started pouting and whinging in Newsweek about the prevalence of
                                  unparliamentary language in the Sejm making Poland look worse than other
                                  countries and lose credibility in their eyes.

                                  I guess the politicians cannot argue points without personal attacks, either.
                            • korowiowek Re: Poultry boys 13.05.06, 22:01
                              sorry but putting Dmowski next to Stalin, Hitler and Berman is just not fair.
                              Dmowski wasn't murderer - He was great politics and patriot of his time.
                              • nasza_maggie Re: Poultry boys 15.05.06, 20:09
                                hmmmmmmm a patoriot who loved the Russians hated Piłsudski and was very good at
                                biology wink He was non too fond of other nationals residing in Poland or any
                                other religions being present here.


                                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmowski
                                Dmowski was very much influenced by Social Darwinist, then popular in the
                                Western world and saw life as a merciless struggle between "strong" nations who
                                dominated and "weak" nations who were dominated.[15] In his view nations could
                                be classified in four categories :

                                1 Nations on the lowest scale of being able or desiring to become independent
                                and self-governing for example in Dmowski's view the Belarussians.

                                2 Nations capable of self-governing themselves with awakened nationalistic
                                aspirations-for example Ukrainians

                                3 Nations wishing to regain independence with centuries-old cultures and
                                statehoods past (e.g. Poles).

                                4 Nations on the highest ladder of social development and tradition, possessing
                                a country currently (e.g. Germans).
                                .....
                                Dmowski saw all minorities as weakening agents within the nation that needed to
                                be purged.[21] In regards to the Jewish minority, in Mysli nowoczesnego Polaka,
                                Dmowski wrote "...in the character of this race [the Jews], so many different
                                values strange to our moral constitution and harmful to our life have
                                accumulated that assimilation with a larger number of Jews would destroy us,
                                replacing us with decadent elements, rather than with those young creative
                                foundations upon which we are building the future".[22]

                                ....

                                Dmowski was an anti-Semitic, and Social Darwinist who saw life as a zero-sum
                                game in which any gain made by one group came at the expense of another.
                                Dmowski often stated his belief in a "international Jewish conspiracy" aimed
                                against Poland. In his essay "Źydzi wobec wojny", which comprises pages 301-308
                                of his 1926 book Polityka Polska i odbudowanie państwa, Dmowski claimed that
                                Zionism was only a cloak to disguise the Jewish ambition to rule the world.
                                Dmowski asserted that once a Jewish state was established in Palestine, this
                                would serve as a nucleus for the Jewish take-over of the world.[51] In the same
                                essay, Dmowski accused the Jews of being Poland's most dangerous enemy and of
                                working hand in hand with the Germans to dismember Poland.[52]

                                For Dmowski, one of Poland's principal problems was that not enough Polish-
                                speaking Catholics were middle-class, while too many ethnic Germans and Jews
                                were. To remedy this perceived problem, he favored a policy of confiscating the
                                wealth of Jews and ethnic Germans and redistributing it to Polish Catholics.
                                Dmowski was never able to have this program passed into law by the Sejm, but
                                the National Democrats did frequently organize "Buy Polish" boycott campaigns
                                against German and Jewish shops.

                                Dmowski died January 2, 1939, in Drozdowo, near Łomża, where he had spent the
                                last few years of his life. He never married.
                                -
                                What a shame he did not live to see some of his theories come to life, so to
                                speak...
                                • korowiowek Re: Poultry boys 15.05.06, 21:36
                                  still puting him in one row with Hitler and Stalin...
                                  He was a mam of his times - compare him to other polititians from 20's and 30's.
                                  Ha was one of the fathers of polish independence and as a such a person he
                                  should be remembered.
                                • ianek70 Dmowski 16.05.06, 12:39
                                  Krzysiu Bosak, an annoying member of LPR whose surname is coincidentally a
                                  slang Scots word for the male scrotum, has generously handed out 220 copies of
                                  Dmowski's "Thoughts" to lucky schools in Zielona Góra, including his own old
                                  secondary school - the originally and eloquently named "I LO".
                                  When asked if any of the pupils actually gave a shit, the librarian at the
                                  First LO said that only one had so far asked about it, that he had been a
                                  wszechpolaczek, and that he hadn't actually bothered borrowing it.

                                  serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34317,3348078.html

                                  Dmowski may have been fashionably and unimaginatively fascistic for an early
                                  20th century demagogue, but he was also apparently a wicked tap-dancer.
                                  I can't remember where I read that...
                                  • nasza_maggie Re: Dmowski 16.05.06, 14:44
                                    and Im sure if he knew where tap dancing originated from, he wouldn't have
                                    bothered wink
                                    • ianek70 Re: Dmowski 16.05.06, 16:07
                                      nasza_maggie napisała:

                                      > and Im sure if he knew where tap dancing originated from, he wouldn't have
                                      > bothered wink

                                      Pity nobody told him who invented writing and printing...
                              • sobieski010 Re: Poultry boys 16.05.06, 21:32
                                Frankly speaking I think Piłsudski is the Father of the modern Poland.
                                He represented the Poland of tolerance, the country which once respected
                                minorities and other religions - and not antisemitic
                                Sanacja against Endacja? Give me Sanacja every day.
                                I think a perfect illustration of Dmowski's ifluence is the murder of Gabriel
                                Narutowicz, Poland's first president. He was a Piłsudski man "to follow
                                faithfully Piłsudski's policy of peace, justice and impartiality toward all
                                Polish citizens, without distinction of origin or opinion
                                Not a policy which either LPR or PIS subscribes to, correct me if I am wrong.
                                Piłsudski subscribed to the idea that you could AND be Polish and NOT catholic,
                                bigotic. That you could be a Jew and still be a great patriot.
                                That you could adhere to your Kashubian ancestry and still be a proud Pole.
                                For many an LPR thug this is a fantasy. Bt they miss out a lot really.
                                For many a PIS fan this is a fantasy. But you can be (in my case)
                                1. Be European (and for the LPR by definition pagan)
                                2. Be a lukewarm Catholic (who enjoys attending church from time to time)
                                3. Consider the LPR Jugend as worse as their Hitler colleagues from before the
                                war
                                And still love this country. Amd I have a very strong reason for that.
                                After all in September 1944 dust-covered Shermans from the First Polish
                                Armoured Division also liberated my Flemish village - on the same time Warsaw
                                burned and Stalin waited and watched. Who would not be grateful?
                                But I do not have to tolerate LPR thuggery and PIS Machiavellism. After all I
                                think the Great Marshal would have despised of them, clowns as they are.


    • kylie1 Re: Poultry boys 12.05.06, 00:12
      Sobieski,

      I have been away from Poland far too long to really understand Poland's
      political scene. I really wish I could part of this converstaion...

      However, I know enough to say that this country went through hell and back and
      where it is right now is nothing short of a miracle! Things are looking up and
      it's only going to get better. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know.

      The thing I can't understand with you, sobieski, is that if you don't like the
      banks (too slow, unprofessional) the books stores ( never stocked up on books
      you want) and the church plus the government are the pits, then what the heck
      are you still doing there? It must be a true nightmare for you.

      You are posting nothing but negativity. You obviously disagree over some
      issues but seem unable to accept any differences in opinion without a
      continual barrage of insults.

      >Where is the emergency exit?

      Everywhere, sobieski. You don't even need a passport. Hop on the plane and off
      you go to a land of your dreams. How about the place you came from...wherever
      it is?



      • sobieski010 Re: Poultry boys 16.05.06, 23:00
        It mystyfies me that if you live in Poland - and you like to live here as I do -
        your right to critise this countru suddenly vanishes. No right no complain about
        communist-style banks. No right to complain about Customs agendies who took six
        months to get my car cleared for registration in Poland.
        Everything has to be so wonderful - Disneyland style.
        Yes the banks are slow and unfriendly, the government is fascist. The
        Rydzyk-kind of Church dominates the landscape.
        TVP does not run commercials for Always during the Papal Visit (and thus
        insulting all women)
        But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary. I do not want to see it
        ruined by Opus Dei types.
        • usenetposts Re: Poultry boys 16.05.06, 23:02
          sobieski010 napisał:

          > It mystyfies me that if you live in Poland - and you like to live here as I
          do
          > -
          > your right to critise this countru suddenly vanishes. No right no complain
          abou
          > t
          > communist-style banks. No right to complain about Customs agendies who took
          six
          > months to get my car cleared for registration in Poland.
          > Everything has to be so wonderful - Disneyland style.
          > Yes the banks are slow and unfriendly, the government is fascist. The
          > Rydzyk-kind of Church dominates the landscape.
          > TVP does not run commercials for Always during the Papal Visit (and thus
          > insulting all women)
          > But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary. I do not want to see it
          > ruined by Opus Dei types.

          Precisely. If we didn't care, we wouldn't criticise. We would just leave like
          so many of the Poles themselves have done.
        • kylie1 Re: Poultry boys 17.05.06, 08:23
          > But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary.

          My right to criticise usually comes with some positive things to say to offset
          the negativity. I am quite familiar with Poland's shortcomings but for someone
          who likes the the country so much, I haven't heard one positive thing from you
          yet. I guess there is a tolerance level for that sort of thing and I can
          personally take only so much.

          I can't stand people that complain all the time. Unfortunately, I am not
          immune to negativity and constant bellyaching whether you live in or outside of
          Poland.

          > But I like this countru a lot.

          I would have never guessed, sobieski.
        • ejmarkow Re: Poultry boys 17.05.06, 09:46
          sobieski010 napisał:

          > It mystyfies me that if you live in Poland - and you like to live here as I
          > do - your right to critise this countru suddenly vanishes.

          Sure you have the right to criticize anything, we all do. We even have the
          right to criticize an individual's criticisms, without getting on a personal
          level of insults for the sake of respect and etiquette. The freedom of critique
          represented in this forum can hardly be considered to be oppressive
          or 'vanishing', as long as we don't categorize or call each other names. More
          than one of us has already interpreted your comments as an indication that you
          don't like it here in Poland so much. That's just the way it seems.

          > No right no complain about communist-style banks. No right to complain about
          > Customs agendies who took six months to get my car cleared for registration
          in Poland.

          If I recall correctly, you complained about a bank in Poland that was actually
          owned by a Belgian bank as someone pointed out in a previous post, not a
          communist bank. And you are from Belgium, correct? Additionally, keep in mind
          that over 70% of all banks in Poland are now 'foreign' owned mostly by Western
          capital, and are not 'Polish' at all. So the probability that anyone deals with
          a Polish controlled bank is obviously smaller. The staff, manager, or even CEO
          who work in the physical building itself may very well be Polish, however,
          usually the ownership, company culture, code of ethics, and training aren't
          Polish.

          > Everything has to be so wonderful - Disneyland style.

          Poland isn't that Western yet. Perhaps a little more time to play catch up.

          > Yes the banks are slow and unfriendly, the government is fascist. The Rydzyk-
          > kind of Church dominates the landscape.

          I guess those Western owned banks where you conduct your banking must improve
          their standards. The 'fascist' government is 'your' opinion, not a fact. PiS
          has been referred to as a 'Conservative-Right' government in most mainstream
          media. Could you please define in detail, what precisely encompasses 'Rydzyk-
          Style'? For example, would the church in my village fall under that category
          (visit my website and read about my church under the 'religion category')?
          If 'yes', then why and give us a good explanation if possible please? I really
          look forward with great anticipation to your answer. I hope it's a good one.
          What about the average church in Warsaw?

          > TVP does not run commercials for Always during the Papal Visit (and thus
          > insulting all women)

          This comment made me smirk! How often does the Pope even visit Poland???
          Really, be serious...it's doesn't happen even once a year. Is that commercial
          so important to you? Are you the producer? Does your opinion represent 'all
          women'? Are you a woman?

          > But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary. I do not want to see it
          > ruined by Opus Dei types.

          Again, we all have our opinion on this forum as to what type of government
          Poland has. Poland has already been demolished by the Nazis, and suppressed and
          ruined by the Communists, and in many aspects sold and robbed by SLD. Let's see
          what PiS will do.

          Cheers,
          Eugene
          Siemiechów, Poland
          www.geocities.com/ejmarkow/siemiechow
    • ianek70 Game over 14.05.06, 12:46
      So Poland's short experiment with freedom and democracy is coming to a farcical
      and melodramatic end.
      Well, never mind.
      • sobieski010 Re: Game over 16.05.06, 22:19
        I agree. I think that the newly-created CBA gives PIS a perfect chance to
        create blackmail lists of their opponents.
        Togther with the Media Ethics Commission two perfect tools to silence any
        opposition.

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