Poultry boys

[sobieski010]

I do not know if any of you have the same feeling, but when I listed to the
news this morning I realised that the nightmare has become true - Lepper vice
prime minister and Giertych minister of information!!!
Where is the emergency exit?

[usenetposts]

Lepper's not such a bad guy inside, you know.

I found him very pleasant when I met him a few years ago.

I'm sure the country will be safe in his hands.

[sobieski010]

Dave, I hope that was a joke...

[usenetposts]

There's a new tradition on this forum, and that is that every 8,500th post
shall contain an element of tongue-in-cheek.

[sobieski010]

I was more hoping for a 100 PLN coupon to be used in any Warsaw pub, but this
comes close

[nasza_maggie]

You know, it is all a bit of a joke with these guys.

Somehow, I cannot help but think Kaczynski just would not take the risk of
putting these guzs in such high places, only to watch them make idiots of
themsleves. At a cost of his reputation.

As they have reached so far, the only way now is down. But to be honest I dont
think the twins would experiment in such a way and if they are then its going
to end in distaster.

[usenetposts]

nasza_maggie napisała:

> You know, it is all a bit of a joke with these guys.
>
> Somehow, I cannot help but think Kaczynski just would not take the risk of
> putting these guzs in such high places, only to watch them make idiots of
> themsleves. At a cost of his reputation.
>
> As they have reached so far, the only way now is down. But to be honest I
dont
> think the twins would experiment in such a way and if they are then its going
> to end in distaster.

What choice did they have? Better these guys than thore loother Tuthk.

[nasza_maggie]

I really have to disagree on that one.
I really feel Tusk such a much more competent team than Lepper and his bunch of
cronies who only joined the party to get absolution from being
put in court for defrauding banks.

[firemouse]

Well, they can even best blokes in the universe, but as far as we discuss
governing the country, I feel much safer if I am ruled by unpleasent and rude
guy who just knows what is he doing.

We need professionals, that's all.

You ask what choice did Duckhursts have? A plenty. Like resigning for ensuring
better future. Or talking to PO instead of throwing insults. They are just
greedy for power and the rest is just result. They want to rule Stalin-style.

And now I am reading that Wildstone is going to be president of public TV. Oh
come on. I want this job too. I am certainly not less competent (it's really
hard to be) but I want this money and power maybe even more, what qualifies me.

[sobieski010]

I agree that Tusk is one of the few decent politicians currently in Poland.

What we now have is a government composed of Opus Dei, a populist with a violent
and criminal past, and a party which thinks that Dmowski's Endacja really had
great ideas. Very very scary all of this.
Add to this the LPR Hitlerjugend and its attacks on gays, Radio Marija...
Disaster!
I have a friend who is a journalist for Radio Polskie - she already is now
complaining about growing censorship.

[ejmarkow]

sobieski010 napisał:

> I agree that Tusk is one of the few decent politicians currently in Poland.

Tusk should consider indulging himself in larger quantities of 'sour grapes'.

> What we now have is a government composed of Opus Dei, a populist with a
> violent and criminal past, and a party which thinks that Dmowski's Endacja
> really had great ideas. Very very scary all of this.

Again, were the Stalinist members of SLD any better with their strong
affiliations to the NKVD and former communists? NKVD were criminals in the
lowest sense. Now 'that' was scary.

> Add to this the LPR Hitlerjugend and its attacks on gays, Radio Marija...
> Disaster! I have a friend who is a journalist for Radio Polskie - she already
> is now complaining about growing censorship.

Back to some basic comparisons again: Hitler versus Trotskyites, RM
versus 'Nie', and gays versus straights. You are telling us nothing new. The
same old pro-liberal anti-Catholic ranting and raving. Is it only hot air you
are venting, or are these common frustrations shared by many liberals that
Christians are now in power in Poland? Hard to swallow, isn't it? Oh, the pain,
how it hurts! Take an aspirin and call Dr. Religa in the morning.

[firemouse]

It's not about Christians, at least for me.

The pis guys just don't have a clue about governing, they are just about power
and money. Their only idea is total control of everything and a country Orwell-
or Huxley-style. This leads nowhere as we all know and people need freedom to be
more productive and generate economy growth.

And don't mix pro-liberal with anti-Catholic. There may be few, but does not
justify the statement.

[russh]

I know very little about Polish politics or politicians, despite being very
interested in the general subject, due to my inability to understand Polish.

What I do manage to hear and read (maybe from biased sources) is frightening.

I get the impression these guys are social control freaks, incapable economic
managers, and unadulterated popularists. Are my impressions wrong?

[nasza_maggie]

christians?!


ROTFL! EJ!! )))))))))))

[ejmarkow]

nasza_maggie napisała:

> christians?!
>
>
> ROTFL! EJ!! )))))))))))

Of course Maggie May!

Fight fire with fire...fight sarcasm with sarcasm.

[sobieski010]

Sarcasm as a way to camouflage full-blooded fascism. I do not know which kind of
christianity you adhere to (the LPR/PIS kind?) but surely not my kind of
catholicism.
It escapes you that you can be liberal, anti-PIS and Christian.
Roman Dmowski would have been very proud of you.

[ejmarkow]

sobieski010 napisał:

> Sarcasm as a way to camouflage full-blooded fascism.

So, is that why you are being sarcastic, to camouflage your fascist views? And
who is camouflaging identities on this forum...not me. You obviously have alot
to hide.


> I do not know which kind of christianity you adhere to (the LPR/PIS kind?)
> but surely not my kind of catholicism.

The Catholic Bible kind. I have no idea who you are, and what you really
practice. You came out of nowhere on this forum to provoke anti-Catholic
feelings. You instigated an argument with me on a previous posting, and falsely
accused me. I kindly asked Dave to scrap your offensive post. Now, you have
started your nonsense once again. I answered your provocation, and this is what
you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is really
allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?

> It escapes you that you can be liberal, anti-PIS and Christian.
> Roman Dmowski would have been very proud of you.

Are you a devout follower of Hitler, Stalin, Trotsky, Berman, or Dmowski? Sure
seems like you adhere to at least one of their philosophies. You must either
have a fetish or mental obsession with Dmowski, mentioning him so often as you
do on this forum.

[minimus]

> you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is
really
> allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?

Sounds to me Eugene that you want some censorship here rather than moderating.

[ejmarkow]

minimus napisał:

> > you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is
> really
> > allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?
>
> Sounds to me Eugene that you want some censorship here rather than moderating.

Dave has mentioned on a previous occasion that if anyone felt offended by
certain material being posted on this forum, then we (the offended) should
promptly inform him. This so called 'sobieski010' has falsely accused me
before, and has done so again. It's not the first time Catholic bashing has
taken place here. It seems to be in style on this forum, with nobody lodging
complaints.

[russh]

Where was the accusation this time EJ? I've read all of the posts, and cannot
find one (maybe the nearest was your's).

Where was the anti Catholic bashing? I cannot see it, although I'm quite happy
to start if you want.

[ejmarkow]

russh napisał:

> Where was the accusation this time EJ? I've read all of the posts, and cannot
> find one (maybe the nearest was your's).
>
> Where was the anti Catholic bashing? I cannot see it, although I'm quite happy
> to start if you want.

When similarities are made to the current goverment and the "Endecja" (In 1927
Dmowski who founded the Endecja saw Catholicism as an essential part of Polish
identity. Dmowski saw all minorities as weakening agents within the nation that
needed to be purged.), for those that know history, sobieski010 was implying
that the current government are a bunch of radical patriotic Catholics without
respect to minorities. The meaning in his statement is there. Do you see it now
Russh? I realize that you would be quite happy to start in defense of
sobieski010's views, and I'm absolutely positive that nobody on this forum will
oppose you. From what I have seen since joining this forum, attacks on the
Catholic church in Poland are highly tolerated here.

[russh]

EJ, you seem to be very pro this current government. Why? What have they done,
or proposed to do, that is positive?

[ejmarkow]

russh napisał:

> EJ, you seem to be very pro this current government. Why? What have they done,
> or proposed to do, that is positive?

Russh, I wouldn't say I am "pro" this government, but more satisfied to see
they have partially eliminated former communist influence. And being a Catholic
myself, I am glad to see practicing Catholics making the political decisions in
Poland. There is nothing wrong with that. And for now, that is good enough for
me. You do realize, they finally formed a majority coalition, so now lets take
the next step and wait-and-see what they are capable of doing before throwing
accusations at them. What I do find agitating is the constant media bashing of
the current coalition, usually instigated by individuals that have no respect
for the Catholic church in Poland. As soon as someone defends the Catholic
church here, they are immediately tainted as fascists, populists, and other
anti-this and that. Low balling cheap shots. It's not necessary. Politicians
such as Rokita and Tusk constantly harbor sour grapes because the elections
didn't result to their liking. Ok, Russh, what has the current government done
that is negative or harmful? Ever since the elections, the financial markets,
zloty, and foreign investors (excellent litmus tests) have all been positive.
Nobody is running away from their investments because of the current
government. They do wish to have better relations with Russia and Germany, and
emphasize more fairness in European energy policies. Now that a majority does
exist, they can start formulating some concrete policies. Let's see what they
can do.

[minimus]

> Ok, Russh, what has the current government done
> that is negative or harmful? Ever since the elections, the financial markets,
> zloty, and foreign investors (excellent litmus tests) have all been positive.

And what positive things have they done so far that supposedly were so good for
the economy? All the positive developments are not because of the govt but
despite of it. Poland still gets huge credit just because it is a EU country
now. Foreign investors are deffo NEGATIVE about the present govt. And it is at
least partly a fascist government. You have heard of Giertych and his storm
troopers?

[ejmarkow]

minimus napisał:

> And what positive things have they done so far that supposedly were so good
> for the economy?

I have answered that question already in detail in the previous posting
of: "11.05.06, 23:14".

> All the positive developments are not because of the govt but despite of it.
> Poland still gets huge credit just because it is a EU country now. Foreign
> investors are deffo NEGATIVE about the present govt.

Of course investors aren't injecting their money into the Polish government
either 'due to' and 'despite' the current government. Most importantly, they
aren't leaving the country or reducing investment because of the current
government, and that in itself is a positive sign. I myself have invested
enourmous amounts of money into the Polish economy, and I'm very satisfied with
the current environment and have no plans to pull out. Many investors agree.
Any shrewd investor would 'jump ship' immediately if the current political
situation was truly a threat. It hasn't happened.

> And it is at least partly a fascist government. You have heard of Giertych
> and his storm troopers?

Sure, so what did they do, protest a gay parade? Very trivial matter. Have they
murdered anyone, or severely crippled somebody for no reason at all, or robbed
them of their lifetime possessions? Do you know the history of communism? I'm
sure you do, and it has been mentioned several times here. They killed (Katyn,
etc.) and sent thousands of Polish Roman Catholics to Siberia. In 1932 and
1933, they starved to death in an artificial famine, millions of peasants in
the Ukraine. Now that makes a difference. When SLD was in power, you should
read about some of the candidates backgrounds, and their families as well. You
will see who were members of the communist party, the NKVD, and much more.
These are individuals that followed the philosophy of communism, murderers that
ruled Poland with an iron fist from 1945 to 1989, and many still wielding
enormous power in Poland today. The accusations against Giertych are 'peanuts'
compared to the crimes committed against the Polish nation by communists.

[ejmarkow]

ejmarkow said, "Of course investors aren't injecting their money into the
Polish government..."

Should be: '...into the Polish economy...'

Guys......

[nasza_maggie]

As Ive not been around too much lately too get INTO the discussions
My view is:

As far as I'm concerned, the current coalition is a shambles.
And I am highly dissapointed, as, as usual, the Kaczynskis have managed to
divide people rather than bring them together. Which many Poles as myslef, were
hoping for after all the SLD malarchy.
If they were as rightseous as they fooled us to be, they wouldnt be holding on
to this power so strongly.
Anyway, there is a theory about short men)))


As a Catholic, I think they are making idiots of themselves and many others who
are also of Catholic faith. Not only that, I think their approach is rather
archaic.

All those trips to Radio Maryja etc I found really pathetic.
Why didn't they all make as many trips to Radio Józef, hm???
What, Radio MAryja has bigger popularity and listeners so we go where the money
is? And thats NOT being populist???



Has anyone EVER bothered to actually LISTEN to Radio Maryja?? Has anyone heard
the indoctrination that goes on there??? The antis-semitism amongst other
insults.
It's an embarassment!

So this 'if we can't beat them, join them' appropach is jst well, silly..

And what is really annoying is the message being sent out - that they
represent all Poles and their views. Well, they don't.

Now, to finish off. I will point out that I am glad the commies are getting a
kick up the backside although I think the problem is so deep rooted it will
take decades. Why?
Because the Mazowiecki government should have done what the Czechs did and ban
the PZPR, or their strongest members from politics for many years. But they
chose differently, today we see the effects.

I for one was hoping that PiS would sort out the Law and the Courts. And
they've employed Lepper to help them do it. Well done (!).
Now the Samoobrona members who are in deep debt and own banks thousands feel
completely free of any fault. So much so they kick out any bailiff that claims
their property!

It's all just TOO ironic for most of us!!!

Much more, the views if Poles in the small cities differ largely from those in
the big cities. It's what they call 'Polska A and Polska B', unfotunately.
Many of us were hoping that PiS would help Poles get rid of this term...and it
seems it won't happen....

Finally, please don't argue and get so emotional I'm sure we all have
different views but still we can stay friends
Politics is a dirty game, let's just not get involved in the mess TOO much ))

Also please remember, that this nation only ever has a COMMON view and comes
together at times of deep crisis. On any other day, forget it)))

btw

[nasza_maggie]

When looking at the situation I can't help but remember the Genesis Song
'Land of Confusion' )))))))))

[ejmarkow]

nasza_maggie napisała:

> As Ive not been around too much lately too get INTO the discussions
> My view is:
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the current coalition is a shambles.
> And I am highly dissapointed, as, as usual, the Kaczynskis have managed to
> divide people rather than bring them together. Which many Poles as myslef,
> were hoping for after all the SLD malarchy.

Divide? They just formed a coalition with two other parties, who share totally
different philosophies. I hope the coalition successfully implements policies
that most Poles will consider to be positive, as well has maintain good
relations with the rest of the world.

> If they were as rightseous as they fooled us to be, they wouldnt be holding
> on to this power so strongly.

Again, it practically boils down to the choice of "the lesser of two evils"
(PIS-LPR-SBRNA vs SLD-PO). I opt for right-leaning Catholics as opposed to
leftist liberal communists anytime.

> Anyway, there is a theory about short men)))

Maggie, when are you going to show us the beauty and elegant form you allegedly
possess? ))) Are you similar to Jola Kwasniewska, or Kaczynski's wife?

> As a Catholic, I think they are making idiots of themselves and many others
> who are also of Catholic faith. Not only that, I think their approach is
> rather archaic.

As a Catholic, I feel the leftist-liberal oriented media are intentionally
making fools of them. It's bloody obvious. Can you describe exactly which
approach you consider to be archaic?

> All those trips to Radio Maryja etc I found really pathetic.
> Why didn't they all make as many trips to Radio Józef, hm???
> What, Radio MAryja has bigger popularity and listeners so we go where the
> money is? And thats NOT being populist???

Yes, agreed, the trips to Radio Maryja were unnecessary. Then again, they are
playing a political card that has paid off for them.

> Has anyone EVER bothered to actually LISTEN to Radio Maryja?? Has anyone
> heard the indoctrination that goes on there??? The antis-semitism amongst
> other insults. It's an embarassment!

I must admit, I have never listened to RM not once, due to my average Polish
language abilities. However, I did hear their broadcast on a PKS bus one
day...it was just a harmless mass in Polish.

> So this 'if we can't beat them, join them' appropach is jst well, silly..

Not everyone that has positive opinions about the current coalition supports RM
Maggie. I certainly don't.

> And what is really annoying is the message being sent out - that they
> represent all Poles and their views. Well, they don't.

Isn't that the annoying habit which is most common in every aspect of media? GW
also likes to think it's opinion is the most accurate. Nobody is an angel or
saint when it comes to media.

To be fair (not in defense of RM...I stress that), as I mentioned numerous
times in previous postings, "Nie" also falls into the same category that RM is
in. The former enjoys frequent Anti-Catholic remarks, the latter frequent Anti-
Semitic remarks. I think both should be thrown to the dogs.

> Now, to finish off. I will point out that I am glad the commies are getting a
> kick up the backside although I think the problem is so deep rooted it will
> take decades. Why? Because the Mazowiecki government should have done what
> the Czechs did and ban the PZPR, or their strongest members from politics for
> many years. But they chose differently, today we see the effects.

Agreed Maggie, however, better late than never, and it certainly isn't too
late.

> I for one was hoping that PiS would sort out the Law and the Courts. And
> they've employed Lepper to help them do it. Well done (!).
> Now the Samoobrona members who are in deep debt and own banks thousands feel
> completely free of any fault. So much so they kick out any bailiff that
> claims their property!

I haven't heard one story about Samoobrona's debts to the banks? Can you
provide me a link (preferably in English) on that subject? Sounds interesting.

> It's all just TOO ironic for most of us!!!

Now are you trying to speak for 'most' of us. Remember your previous
quote: "...that they represent all Poles and their views...".

> Much more, the views if Poles in the small cities differ largely from those
> in the big cities. It's what they call 'Polska A and Polska B', unfotunately.
> Many of us were hoping that PiS would help Poles get rid of this term...and
> it seems it won't happen....

I 'currently reside' in Polska B (Małopolska) for only 4 years, however, I am
born and raised for most of my life in one of the largest cities in the world
(New York City). Again, and I support the radical Catholics over the rotten
Communists anytime. So, I must be an exception to the rule then.

> Finally, please don't argue and get so emotional I'm sure we all have
> different views but still we can stay friends Politics is a dirty game,
> let's just not get involved in the mess TOO much ))

Agreed! Just because an individual supports a certain political party,
shouldn't be tainted as anti-minority, or a fascist. No personal attacks on a
participant of this forum please. Only in defense, will I personally attack
somebody when they attempt to defame my character. Again, I wish it not go even
that far.

> Also please remember, that this nation only ever has a COMMON view and comes
> together at times of deep crisis. On any other day, forget it)))

I believe that applies to all nations, as we are all unique individuals with
our very own opinions, nobody alike.

[nasza_maggie]

ejmarkow napisał:

> nasza_maggie napisała:
>
> > As Ive not been around too much lately too get INTO the discussions
> > My view is:
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned, the current coalition is a shambles.
> > And I am highly dissapointed, as, as usual, the Kaczynskis have managed t
> o
> > divide people rather than bring them together. Which many Poles as myslef
> ,
> > were hoping for after all the SLD malarchy.
>
> Divide? They just formed a coalition with two other parties, who share
totally
> different philosophies.

\yes and lets see how long that will last and how much sense it will make to
your avarage Pole.
I hope the coalition successfully implements policies
> that most Poles will consider to be positive, as well has maintain good
> relations with the rest of the world.

You are an optimist.

>
> > If they were as rightseous as they fooled us to be, they wouldnt be holdi
> ng
> > on to this power so strongly.

I think the opposite.

>
> Again, it practically boils down to the choice of "the lesser of two evils"
> (PIS-LPR-SBRNA vs SLD-PO). I opt for right-leaning Catholics as opposed to
> leftist liberal communists anytime.

I don't think it is as simple as that. And I don't think its a good idea
dividing people into commies/liberals. Its a common mistake today to fall into
that trap of saying that anyone who is liberal is a Commie.
>
> > Anyway, there is a theory about short men)))
>
> Maggie, when are you going to show us the beauty and elegant form you
allegedly
>
> possess? ))) Are you similar to Jola Kwasniewska, or Kaczynski's wife?

No I am similar to that actress Krystyna Feldman, I told you already.
>
> > As a Catholic, I think they are making idiots of themselves and many othe
> rs
> > who are also of Catholic faith. Not only that, I think their approach is
> > rather archaic.
>
> As a Catholic, I feel the leftist-liberal oriented media are intentionally
> making fools of them. It's bloody obvious. Can you describe exactly which
> approach you consider to be archaic?

Does that apply to Tygodnik Powszechny?
The approach that Poles only want one way of thinking and governing.
>
> > All those trips to Radio Maryja etc I found really pathetic.
> > Why didn't they all make as many trips to Radio Józef, hm???
> > What, Radio MAryja has bigger popularity and listeners so we go where the
>
> > money is? And thats NOT being populist???
>
> Yes, agreed, the trips to Radio Maryja were unnecessary. Then again, they are
> playing a political card that has paid off for them.

Has it...

>
> > Has anyone EVER bothered to actually LISTEN to Radio Maryja?? Has anyone
> > heard the indoctrination that goes on there??? The antis-semitism amongst
> > other insults. It's an embarassment!
>
> I must admit, I have never listened to RM not once, due to my average Polish
> language abilities. However, I did hear their broadcast on a PKS bus one
> day...it was just a harmless mass in Polish.

Most masses are harmless
>
> > So this 'if we can't beat them, join them' appropach is jst well, silly..
>
> Not everyone that has positive opinions about the current coalition supports
RM
>
> Maggie. I certainly don't.
>
> > And what is really annoying is the message being sent out - that they
> > represent all Poles and their views. Well, they don't.
>
> Isn't that the annoying habit which is most common in every aspect of media?
GW
>
> also likes to think it's opinion is the most accurate. Nobody is an angel or
> saint when it comes to media.

TP as above.
I dont read GW. My contacts with it apply soley to using their fora.

>
> To be fair (not in defense of RM...I stress that), as I mentioned numerous
> times in previous postings, "Nie" also falls into the same category that RM
is
> in. The former enjoys frequent Anti-Catholic remarks, the latter frequent
Anti-
> Semitic remarks. I think both should be thrown to the dogs.

Yes but NIE is a silly paper with not so much readership and anyone with half a
brain knows that Urban is an idiot.

>
> > Now, to finish off. I will point out that I am glad the commies are getti
> ng a
> > kick up the backside although I think the problem is so deep rooted it wi
> ll
> > take decades. Why? Because the Mazowiecki government should have done wha
> t
> > the Czechs did and ban the PZPR, or their strongest members from politics
> for
> > many years. But they chose differently, today we see the effects.
>
> Agreed Maggie, however, better late than never, and it certainly isn't too
> late.

In some aspects it is. It is now so far gone and so deep rooted *corruption
wise, that the new generation of politicians has also been somewhat 'infected'
with the old attitude.
If we cut them off at the cord, it would be different now, Im sure.

>
> > I for one was hoping that PiS would sort out the Law and the Courts. And
> > they've employed Lepper to help them do it. Well done (!).
> > Now the Samoobrona members who are in deep debt and own banks thousands f
> eel
> > completely free of any fault. So much so they kick out any bailiff that
> > claims their property!
>
> I haven't heard one story about Samoobrona's debts to the banks? Can you
> provide me a link (preferably in English) on that subject? Sounds interesting.

Well, Im not surprised. Especially they won't brag about it to the foreign
press.
Many of thei members or ex members, have many credits they havent paid off and
now you cannot do anything to these people because they have 'immunity'.
>
> > It's all just TOO ironic for most of us!!!
>
> Now are you trying to speak for 'most' of us. Remember your previous
> quote: "...that they represent all Poles and their views...".

You do tend to get patronising sometimes but I forgive you
>
> > Much more, the views if Poles in the small cities differ largely from tho
> se
> > in the big cities. It's what they call 'Polska A and Polska B', unfotunat
> ely.
> > Many of us were hoping that PiS would help Poles get rid of this term...a
> nd
> > it seems it won't happen....
>
> I 'currently reside' in Polska B (Małopolska) for only 4 years,
Taht can be seena as TOO long

however, I am
> born and raised for most of my life in one of the largest cities in the world
> (New York City). Again, and I support the radical Catholics over the rotten
> Communists anytime. So, I must be an exception to the rule then.

I think you may be

>
> > Finally, please don't argue and get so emotional I'm sure we all have
> > different views but still we can stay friends Politics is a dirty game,
> > let's just not get involved in the mess TOO much ))
>
> Agreed! Just because an individual supports a certain political party,
> shouldn't be tainted as anti-minority, or a fascist. No personal attacks on a
> participant of this forum please. Only in defense, will I personally attack
> somebody when they attempt to defame my character. Again, I wish it not go
even
>
> that far.
>
> > Also please remember, that this nation only ever has a COMMON view and co
> mes
> 

[usenetposts]

ejmarkow napisał:

> ejmarkow said, "Of course investors aren't injecting their money into the
> Polish government..."
>
> Should be: '...into the Polish economy...'

That's what you might call "much of a muchness", given the current system of
taxation.

[minimus]

sorry, a pointless discussion. You just don't know what you are talking about.

Bye

[usenetposts]

ejmarkow napisał:

> sobieski010 napisał:
>
> > Sarcasm as a way to camouflage full-blooded fascism.
>
> So, is that why you are being sarcastic, to camouflage your fascist views?
And
> who is camouflaging identities on this forum...not me. You obviously have
alot
> to hide.
>
>
> > I do not know which kind of christianity you adhere to (the LPR/PIS kind?
> )
> > but surely not my kind of catholicism.
>
> The Catholic Bible kind. I have no idea who you are, and what you really
> practice. You came out of nowhere on this forum to provoke anti-Catholic
> feelings. You instigated an argument with me on a previous posting, and
falsely
>
> accused me. I kindly asked Dave to scrap your offensive post. Now, you have
> started your nonsense once again. I answered your provocation, and this is
what
>
> you obviously wish to have, an argument and accusation session. Dave is
really
> allowing this to happen...I'm surprised. Dave, are you moderating at all?

I am watching this, although I was away yesterday. People are allowed to hold
their opinions and express them, but I would like to take this opportunity to
remind all parties to be polite to everyone else, and not make personal slurs.

I am more right wing than most people here, and not a Catholic but a
conservative Protestant, but I am happy for leftist people to express their
views as long as they keep to certain standards of debate. Let us assume good
will on the side of the other person and actually try to like the other person
if we only can.

For instance, I have very different views to Ianek, but I always enjoy his work
on this forum.

Let's try to debate hotly, but debate issues rather than the charcters of our
fellow internauts.

If people do start to become personally abusive - and Sobieski calling people
fascists is "na pograniczu faulu" although I personally get call a fascist
quite a lot and it doesn't bother me that much, then I might have to start
blocking posts, but I don't want to do it if I can help it.

[kylie1]

Good post, Dave. I appreciate that.

We all have opinions about one thing or another but I agree that personal
attacks on other forum members should place that person on a moderated status.
If someone disagrees with someone else's opinion and feels strongly enough to
express an opposing view point, why not do it in a courteous manner? Why does
it have to be jabs and insults?

You know, Dave, the more I read about the politics in Poland ( and I am still
very confused about all this), the more I ask myself this: "Have we ever had a
governmnet in Canada that we were really happy with?" I don't think so. In
fact, I know so. And even though the vast majority of Canadians are happy with
Canada, we never ever stop complaining about our politicians - be it liberals,
NDP-ers or conservatives. They never seem to commit to programs, there is
always a maltitude of scandals, never ending health care problems, immigration
issues...you name it. It's almost in our blood to complain. But the clash of
opinions does not have to lead to insults. That's just life.

Do people in Poland really think that other countries are that much different?
Correct me if I am wrong, Dave, but I think people in Poland have this strange
feeling of inferiority in terms of their status in the world. We are really not
that different. Poland has so many wonderful things that we don't have and and
never will. Why is everyone so unhappy all the time? I find this terribly
depressing and drab.

Anyway, that's it for my bellyaching.Have a great week-end!

kylie

[usenetposts]

kylie1 napisała:

> Good post, Dave. I appreciate that.

Thanks for that, Kylie.

>
> We all have opinions about one thing or another but I agree that personal
> attacks on other forum members should place that person on a moderated
status.

I think if opinions are validly held it ought to be possible to argue them
without making personal remarks about the other person in the discussion.

> If someone disagrees with someone else's opinion and feels strongly enough to
> express an opposing view point, why not do it in a courteous manner? Why does
> it have to be jabs and insults?

People probably think it adds to the entertainment value, but this is not the
Jerry Springer show.


> You know, Dave, the more I read about the politics in Poland ( and I am still
> very confused about all this), the more I ask myself this: "Have we ever had
a
> governmnet in Canada that we were really happy with?" I don't think so. In
> fact, I know so. And even though the vast majority of Canadians are happy with
>
> Canada, we never ever stop complaining about our politicians - be it
liberals,
> NDP-ers or conservatives. They never seem to commit to programs, there is
> always a maltitude of scandals, never ending health care problems,
immigration
> issues...you name it. It's almost in our blood to complain. But the clash of
> opinions does not have to lead to insults. That's just life.
>
> Do people in Poland really think that other countries are that much different?
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, Dave, but I think people in Poland have this
strange
> feeling of inferiority in terms of their status in the world. We are really
not
>
> that different. Poland has so many wonderful things that we don't have and
and
> never will. Why is everyone so unhappy all the time? I find this terribly
> depressing and drab.

That's a very valid point, and Norman Davies didn't help matters recently when
he started pouting and whinging in Newsweek about the prevalence of
unparliamentary language in the Sejm making Poland look worse than other
countries and lose credibility in their eyes.

I guess the politicians cannot argue points without personal attacks, either.

[korowiowek]

sorry but putting Dmowski next to Stalin, Hitler and Berman is just not fair.
Dmowski wasn't murderer - He was great politics and patriot of his time.

[nasza_maggie]

hmmmmmmm a patoriot who loved the Russians hated Piłsudski and was very good at
biology He was non too fond of other nationals residing in Poland or any
other religions being present here.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmowski
Dmowski was very much influenced by Social Darwinist, then popular in the
Western world and saw life as a merciless struggle between "strong" nations who
dominated and "weak" nations who were dominated.[15] In his view nations could
be classified in four categories :

1 Nations on the lowest scale of being able or desiring to become independent
and self-governing for example in Dmowski's view the Belarussians.

2 Nations capable of self-governing themselves with awakened nationalistic
aspirations-for example Ukrainians

3 Nations wishing to regain independence with centuries-old cultures and
statehoods past (e.g. Poles).

4 Nations on the highest ladder of social development and tradition, possessing
a country currently (e.g. Germans).
.....
Dmowski saw all minorities as weakening agents within the nation that needed to
be purged.[21] In regards to the Jewish minority, in Mysli nowoczesnego Polaka,
Dmowski wrote "...in the character of this race [the Jews], so many different
values strange to our moral constitution and harmful to our life have
accumulated that assimilation with a larger number of Jews would destroy us,
replacing us with decadent elements, rather than with those young creative
foundations upon which we are building the future".[22]

....

Dmowski was an anti-Semitic, and Social Darwinist who saw life as a zero-sum
game in which any gain made by one group came at the expense of another.
Dmowski often stated his belief in a "international Jewish conspiracy" aimed
against Poland. In his essay "Źydzi wobec wojny", which comprises pages 301-308
of his 1926 book Polityka Polska i odbudowanie państwa, Dmowski claimed that
Zionism was only a cloak to disguise the Jewish ambition to rule the world.
Dmowski asserted that once a Jewish state was established in Palestine, this
would serve as a nucleus for the Jewish take-over of the world.[51] In the same
essay, Dmowski accused the Jews of being Poland's most dangerous enemy and of
working hand in hand with the Germans to dismember Poland.[52]

For Dmowski, one of Poland's principal problems was that not enough Polish-
speaking Catholics were middle-class, while too many ethnic Germans and Jews
were. To remedy this perceived problem, he favored a policy of confiscating the
wealth of Jews and ethnic Germans and redistributing it to Polish Catholics.
Dmowski was never able to have this program passed into law by the Sejm, but
the National Democrats did frequently organize "Buy Polish" boycott campaigns
against German and Jewish shops.

Dmowski died January 2, 1939, in Drozdowo, near Łomża, where he had spent the
last few years of his life. He never married.
-
What a shame he did not live to see some of his theories come to life, so to
speak...

[korowiowek]

still puting him in one row with Hitler and Stalin...
He was a mam of his times - compare him to other polititians from 20's and 30's.
Ha was one of the fathers of polish independence and as a such a person he
should be remembered.

Dmowski

[ianek70]

Krzysiu Bosak, an annoying member of LPR whose surname is coincidentally a
slang Scots word for the male scrotum, has generously handed out 220 copies of
Dmowski's "Thoughts" to lucky schools in Zielona Góra, including his own old
secondary school - the originally and eloquently named "I LO".
When asked if any of the pupils actually gave a shit, the librarian at the
First LO said that only one had so far asked about it, that he had been a
wszechpolaczek, and that he hadn't actually bothered borrowing it.

serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34317,3348078.html

Dmowski may have been fashionably and unimaginatively fascistic for an early
20th century demagogue, but he was also apparently a wicked tap-dancer.
I can't remember where I read that...

[nasza_maggie]

and Im sure if he knew where tap dancing originated from, he wouldn't have
bothered

[ianek70]

nasza_maggie napisała:

> and Im sure if he knew where tap dancing originated from, he wouldn't have
> bothered

Pity nobody told him who invented writing and printing...

[sobieski010]

Frankly speaking I think Piłsudski is the Father of the modern Poland.
He represented the Poland of tolerance, the country which once respected
minorities and other religions - and not antisemitic
Sanacja against Endacja? Give me Sanacja every day.
I think a perfect illustration of Dmowski's ifluence is the murder of Gabriel
Narutowicz, Poland's first president. He was a Piłsudski man "to follow
faithfully Piłsudski's policy of peace, justice and impartiality toward all
Polish citizens, without distinction of origin or opinion
Not a policy which either LPR or PIS subscribes to, correct me if I am wrong.
Piłsudski subscribed to the idea that you could AND be Polish and NOT catholic,
bigotic. That you could be a Jew and still be a great patriot.
That you could adhere to your Kashubian ancestry and still be a proud Pole.
For many an LPR thug this is a fantasy. Bt they miss out a lot really.
For many a PIS fan this is a fantasy. But you can be (in my case)
1. Be European (and for the LPR by definition pagan)
2. Be a lukewarm Catholic (who enjoys attending church from time to time)
3. Consider the LPR Jugend as worse as their Hitler colleagues from before the
war
And still love this country. Amd I have a very strong reason for that.
After all in September 1944 dust-covered Shermans from the First Polish
Armoured Division also liberated my Flemish village - on the same time Warsaw
burned and Stalin waited and watched. Who would not be grateful?
But I do not have to tolerate LPR thuggery and PIS Machiavellism. After all I
think the Great Marshal would have despised of them, clowns as they are.

[kylie1]

Sobieski,

I have been away from Poland far too long to really understand Poland's
political scene. I really wish I could part of this converstaion...

However, I know enough to say that this country went through hell and back and
where it is right now is nothing short of a miracle! Things are looking up and
it's only going to get better. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know.

The thing I can't understand with you, sobieski, is that if you don't like the
banks (too slow, unprofessional) the books stores ( never stocked up on books
you want) and the church plus the government are the pits, then what the heck
are you still doing there? It must be a true nightmare for you.

You are posting nothing but negativity. You obviously disagree over some
issues but seem unable to accept any differences in opinion without a
continual barrage of insults.

>Where is the emergency exit?

Everywhere, sobieski. You don't even need a passport. Hop on the plane and off
you go to a land of your dreams. How about the place you came from...wherever
it is?

[sobieski010]

It mystyfies me that if you live in Poland - and you like to live here as I do -
your right to critise this countru suddenly vanishes. No right no complain about
communist-style banks. No right to complain about Customs agendies who took six
months to get my car cleared for registration in Poland.
Everything has to be so wonderful - Disneyland style.
Yes the banks are slow and unfriendly, the government is fascist. The
Rydzyk-kind of Church dominates the landscape.
TVP does not run commercials for Always during the Papal Visit (and thus
insulting all women)
But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary. I do not want to see it
ruined by Opus Dei types.

[usenetposts]

sobieski010 napisał:

> It mystyfies me that if you live in Poland - and you like to live here as I
do
> -
> your right to critise this countru suddenly vanishes. No right no complain
abou
> t
> communist-style banks. No right to complain about Customs agendies who took
six
> months to get my car cleared for registration in Poland.
> Everything has to be so wonderful - Disneyland style.
> Yes the banks are slow and unfriendly, the government is fascist. The
> Rydzyk-kind of Church dominates the landscape.
> TVP does not run commercials for Always during the Papal Visit (and thus
> insulting all women)
> But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary. I do not want to see it
> ruined by Opus Dei types.

Precisely. If we didn't care, we wouldn't criticise. We would just leave like
so many of the Poles themselves have done.

[kylie1]

> But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary.

My right to criticise usually comes with some positive things to say to offset
the negativity. I am quite familiar with Poland's shortcomings but for someone
who likes the the country so much, I haven't heard one positive thing from you
yet. I guess there is a tolerance level for that sort of thing and I can
personally take only so much.

I can't stand people that complain all the time. Unfortunately, I am not
immune to negativity and constant bellyaching whether you live in or outside of
Poland.

> But I like this countru a lot.

I would have never guessed, sobieski.

[ejmarkow]

sobieski010 napisał:

> It mystyfies me that if you live in Poland - and you like to live here as I
> do - your right to critise this countru suddenly vanishes.

Sure you have the right to criticize anything, we all do. We even have the
right to criticize an individual's criticisms, without getting on a personal
level of insults for the sake of respect and etiquette. The freedom of critique
represented in this forum can hardly be considered to be oppressive
or 'vanishing', as long as we don't categorize or call each other names. More
than one of us has already interpreted your comments as an indication that you
don't like it here in Poland so much. That's just the way it seems.

> No right no complain about communist-style banks. No right to complain about
> Customs agendies who took six months to get my car cleared for registration
in Poland.

If I recall correctly, you complained about a bank in Poland that was actually
owned by a Belgian bank as someone pointed out in a previous post, not a
communist bank. And you are from Belgium, correct? Additionally, keep in mind
that over 70% of all banks in Poland are now 'foreign' owned mostly by Western
capital, and are not 'Polish' at all. So the probability that anyone deals with
a Polish controlled bank is obviously smaller. The staff, manager, or even CEO
who work in the physical building itself may very well be Polish, however,
usually the ownership, company culture, code of ethics, and training aren't
Polish.

> Everything has to be so wonderful - Disneyland style.

Poland isn't that Western yet. Perhaps a little more time to play catch up.

> Yes the banks are slow and unfriendly, the government is fascist. The Rydzyk-
> kind of Church dominates the landscape.

I guess those Western owned banks where you conduct your banking must improve
their standards. The 'fascist' government is 'your' opinion, not a fact. PiS
has been referred to as a 'Conservative-Right' government in most mainstream
media. Could you please define in detail, what precisely encompasses 'Rydzyk-
Style'? For example, would the church in my village fall under that category
(visit my website and read about my church under the 'religion category')?
If 'yes', then why and give us a good explanation if possible please? I really
look forward with great anticipation to your answer. I hope it's a good one.
What about the average church in Warsaw?

> TVP does not run commercials for Always during the Papal Visit (and thus
> insulting all women)

This comment made me smirk! How often does the Pope even visit Poland???
Really, be serious...it's doesn't happen even once a year. Is that commercial
so important to you? Are you the producer? Does your opinion represent 'all
women'? Are you a woman?

> But I like this countru a lot. I moved here voluntary. I do not want to see it
> ruined by Opus Dei types.

Again, we all have our opinion on this forum as to what type of government
Poland has. Poland has already been demolished by the Nazis, and suppressed and
ruined by the Communists, and in many aspects sold and robbed by SLD. Let's see
what PiS will do.

Cheers,
Eugene
Siemiechów, Poland
www.geocities.com/ejmarkow/siemiechow

Game over

[ianek70]

So Poland's short experiment with freedom and democracy is coming to a farcical
and melodramatic end.
Well, never mind.

[sobieski010]

I agree. I think that the newly-created CBA gives PIS a perfect chance to
create blackmail lists of their opponents.
Togther with the Media Ethics Commission two perfect tools to silence any
opposition.