Zanim zobaczysz zdzblo....wyciagnij belke.

[Gość: Zbyszek]

Ponizej podane jest zrodlo informacji i obszerny fragment wraz ztlumaczeniem.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,507151,00.html

Brian Whitaker in Jerusalem and Vikram Dodd
Friday June 15, 2001
The Guardian

Israeli officials attacked the BBC yesterday for a Panorama
programme which concludes that the prime minister, Ariel
Sharon, could be tried for war crimes in connection with the
massacre of Palestinians in Lebanon in 1982.

Israel army radio said efforts were being made to prevent
the
programme being broadcast on Sunday, or to include an
Israeli
reply in it.

After Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, its forces, under Mr
Sharon's command as defence minister, allowed Lebanese
Christian allies to enter the refugee camps of Sabra and
Shatila.

More than 1,000 Palestinians were massacred by the
Phalangist militias.

"Przedstawiciele Izraela zaatakowali wczoraj BBC za
wyemitowanie programu Panorama, w ktorym stwierdzono, ze premier, Ariel Sharon,
powinien byc sadzony za zbrodnie wojenne
w zwiazku z masakra Palestynczykow w Libanie w 1982 roku.

Radio armii izraelskiej podalo, ze czyniono starania aby nie dopuscic do
wyemitowania programu w niedziele, lub aby dolaczyc wyjasnienia Izraela w tej
sprawie.

Po napasci Izraela na Liban w 1982 roku, sily izraelskie pod dowodztwem Sharona
jako ministra obrony, pozwolily sojusznikom, Libanskim Chrzescijanom, wtargnac do
obozu dla uciekinierow w Sabrze i Shatila.

Ponad 1000 Palestynczykow zostalo zmasakrowanych przez Falangistow."

Zdolny uczen ten Sharon. Zrobil dokladnie to samo co Niemcy w Jedwabnym.
"Kto mieczem wojuje od miecza zginie" czy to jeszcze nie dotarlo do czesci madrych
Zydow?
Chyba najwyzszy czas, aby zaczeli protestowac przeciwko zbrodnim popelnianym
przez Izrael
I przeciw (jak to okreslil lagodnie jeden z zydofilow na forum) pienictwu grup i
organizacji
Zydowskich usilujacych wyciagnac miliardy dolarow od kogo sie tylko da. Szwajcaria,
Polska, Francja a nawet Niemcy.

Oby chciwosc waszych braci w wierze nie obrocila sie ponownie przeciwko calemu
narodowi. Niech Bog ma was w swojej opiece.

[Gość: Green]

Zydzi to po prostu bardzo zdolny naród, ktory umie uczyc sie na historii, w przeciwienstwie do wiekszosci pozostalych... W polityce liczy sie skutecznosc, a zwyciezcow nikt nie sadzi, jak wielokrotnie był łaskaw stwierdzić pan Schicklgruber, też podobno Żyd.

_Izraelskie Jedwabne ??___

[Gość: Vist]

Gość portalu: Zbyszek napisał(a):
>
> Po napasci Izraela na Liban w 1982 roku, sily izraelskie pod dowodztwem Sharona
>
> jako ministra obrony, pozwolily sojusznikom, Libanskim Chrzescijanom, wtargnac
> do
> obozu dla uciekinierow w Sabrze i Shatila.
>
> Ponad 1000 Palestynczykow zostalo zmasakrowanych przez Falangistow."
>
> Zdolny uczen ten Sharon. Zrobil dokladnie to samo co Niemcy w Jedwabnym.
> "Kto mieczem wojuje od miecza zginie" czy to jeszcze nie dotarlo do czesci madr
> ych
> Zydow?
> Chyba najwyzszy czas, aby zaczeli protestowac przeciwko zbrodnim popelnianym
> przez Izrael...

[Gość: Zbyszek]

Wyraznie widac, ze gdy operuje sie faktani to semitow i filosemitow jakos "zatyka". Nawet nie probuja podjac
tematu czekajac aby jak najszybciej spadl gdzies na koniec listy. Ten fenomen obserwuje juz od dawna rowniez
na innych "forumach".

Dlatego apel do wszystkich uczestnikow, nie uzywajmy pomowien i manipulacji, tak jak ostatnio zrobil Berg.
Przez to traci sie wiarygodnosc, a raz ja straciwszy trudno jest ja odzyskac. I co na cytat z "Guardiana"
powiedza ci ktorzy wyszukiwali w nim "Michnik"?

Ja bardzo wyraznie podalem zrodlo. I bardzo prosze nie mowic mi, ze Palestyna to nie nasza sprawa. Jezeli
narod izraelski godzi sie na to aby ich premierem byl zbrodniarz wojenny to zle swiadczy o tym narodzie.

[Gość: ??]

I co?

przeglad izraelskiej prasy: program BBC

[Gość: Luki]

To bedzie dluuuuugi post :)

Kopiuje pare artykulow i recenzji z izraelskiej prasy o programie BBC.
Tak dla wyrobienia sobie opinii - sa dosc wywazone.

Pozno sie robi, dosc juz patrzenia w ekran, wiec nie bede tlumaczyl
z angielskiego - przepraszam tych, ktorzy nie zrozumieja.

Pare wywiadow mozna posluchac na stronie www.jpost.com

pozdrowienia, Luki

(June 18, Yediot Ahronot)
Yediot Ahronot, in its fourth editorial, asserts that it is
difficult to criticize the BBC for last night's Panorama program
which sought to portray Prime minister Ariel Sharon as a war
criminal and reminds its readers that "Only a few months ago,
there were those among us who tried - albeit unsuccessfully - to
persuade us that Sharon is a war criminal." However, the editors
believe that "Whoever knowingly transgresses with self-righteous
and intellectually dishonest claims, and persists in seating
Sharon alongside war criminals such as Milosevic and Pinochet, is
undercutting his own investigation in advance." The paper
suggests that Prime Minister Sharon should have agreed to be
interviewed for the program.

(June 20, Ma'ariv)
Ma'ariv, in its second editorial, avers that "Only complete
sickos or certified Ariel Sharon-haters took seriously the BBC
personnel's naive explanations vis-a-vis their attempt to justify
why they produced an 'investigative piece' now on the Sabra and
Shatila massacre from 19 years ago," and says that the
"manipulative" Panorama program brought no new information to
light. The editors believe that Panorama's "goal was to cast
accusations at Sharon on the assumption that the media effect
would spur further moves," and believes the fact that massacre
survivors opened legal proceedings against Prime Minister Sharon
in a Belgian court the same day was hardly a coincidence. The
paper suggests that if Panorama is desperate for material, "There
is another aging leader around - with plenty of survivors to
testify against him - who would suit their purposes."


(June 20, The Jerusalem Post)

Israel's state-owned television decided not to air a BBC documentary discussing
whether Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is indictable for war crimes, an official
said today.

The documentary dealt with the 1982 massacre of more than 800 Palestinians in
Beirut by Israel's Christian allies during the 1982 Israeli invasion of
Lebanon.

An Israeli judicial commission of inquiry ruled that Sharon, who was Israel's
defense minister at the time, should have foreseen the risk involved in sending
the Christian Phalangist militia into the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps.

The commission held Sharon indirectly responsible for the massacre, and he
resigned from his post.

In the BBC program, entitled "The Accused," an international law expert said
Sharon would be indictable on war crimes charges.

Israel TV's Channel One bought the broadcast rights for the documentary. The
head of the TV's news department, Rafik Halabi, said in a radio interview the
program was of considerable public interest.

But the Israel Broadcasting Authority, which controls Channel One, overruled
Halabi's proposal to air the documentary.

The decision was taken by IBA director Uri Porat, IBA spokesman Yuval Ganor
said. He refused to state the grounds for Porat's decision.

Parts of the program had however been shown and discussed on two of the
station's newscasts. "This was quite sufficient, and as far as we were
concerned the affair of the BBC documentary was closed," Ganor said.

The Foreign Ministry said the documentary was "distorted, unfair and
intentionally hostile."


(June 20, The Jerusalem Post)

JERUSALEM (June 20) - The BBC Panorama documentary on the role of Prime
Minister Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla is continuing to cause waves in
Israel and in judicial circles.

A leading international war-crimes lawyer, who participated in the program, is
insisting he did not say Sharon should be indicted for his role in the massacre
of Palestinian refugees in the Lebanese camps.

Despite reports to the contrary, Judge Richard Goldstone said he told the BBC
he would talk about international war-crimes law in general but would not speak
about the specifics of Sharon's involvement. Goldstone, a former chief
prosecutor for the UN's criminal tribunals, made his comments in an interview
with Jerusalem Post Radio.

The following is taken from the official transcript of the BBC program:

Panorama: "I understand that as a judge in a South African court, you don't
want to get into labelling people in other countries as 'war criminals,' but in
your assessment of command responsibility, isn't it reasonable to say that if
responsibility goes all the way to the top, to the person who gave the orders,
that potentially makes Ariel Sharon a war criminal?"

Goldstone: "Well, it depends very much on the facts, but if the person who gave
the command knows, or should know, on the facts available to him or her that
there's a situation where innocent civilians are going to be injured or killed,
then that person is as responsible - in fact, in my book more responsible,
even - than the people who carry out the orders."

In his interview with Jerusalem Post Radio, Goldstone said: "I agreed to speak
to [the BBC] as an expert on the law in general, on command responsibility, but
I said I would not in any way comment on any liability, criminal or civil, of
Ariel Sharon and I didn't do so.

"I haven't yet seen the program, but if it comes across that way it's
incorrect... I certainly didn't comment on the responsibility of Sharon."

The program was broadcast in the same week a Belgian court begins considering
whether Sharon can be brought to trial for his part in the 1982 massacre.

At least 23 survivors of the Christian Phalange militia rampage in the camps
are trying to see those responsible are put behind bars.

Their lawyer, Michael Verhaeghe, claims those responsible include then defense
minister Sharon, Maj.-Gen. (res.) Amos Yaron, who was chief infantry and
paratroop officer, and the Phalangists, who did the actual killing.

In an interview with Jerusalem Post Radio, Verhaeghe said all that interests
his clients is justice.

"These crimes being the most serious offenses possible, also in Belgian
national order and in international order, the maximum sentence is life
imprisonment," said Verhaeghe. "According to our legal analysis, we consider
[Sharon] to be morally responsible... In our file there are more-than-
sufficient indications of guilt."

Later today, a magistrate will be officially appointed to investigate the
matter.

The Palestinians do not have Belgian citizenship, but Verhaeghe maintains they
have the right to bring the matter to a court in Brussels. In 1993, Belgian law
was changed to allow this type of complaint to be filed by non-nationals. This,
said Verhaeghe, was in line with the Nuremberg, Tokyo, and Eichmann decisions.

However, Ruth Lapidot, a professor of international law at Hebrew University,
believes it is highly unlikely Sharon will be brought to trial, given the
rulings contained in the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which deals with the
protection of people in times of war.

"It says... 'they have an obligation to search for persons alleged to have
committed or to have ordered to be committed,' which means the penal sanctions
apply only to a person who either has committed himself or has ordered to be
committed some of these terrible deeds," Lapidot explained.

The International Committee of the Red Cross interpretation of the convention
suggests no legal responsibility is incurred by those who do not intervene to
prevent or to put an end to a breach of the convention, she noted.

Two additional considerations make it unlikely that Verh

2.przeglad izraelskiej prasy: program BBC

[Gość: Luki]

Ucielo mi koncowke, wiec dopisuje.
Wszystkich znudzonych dlugoscia postu przepraszam :)

Luki

(...)
Two additional considerations make it unlikely that Verhaeghe's mission will
succeed, said Lapidot. "Heads of states and prime ministers cannot be brought
to trial while serving, according to international law."

Additionally, if Belgian law is not in conformity with international law,
Belgian jurisdiction could be ruled out. "The Belgian court can exercise
universal jurisdiction with regard to offenses under international law but not
offenses which the Belgians think are appropriate."

Despite Lapidot's skepticism, the Belgian magistrate, known as the judge of
instruction, will spend the coming weeks deciding what action should be taken,
including whether to call witnesses and to hold a full trial before a jury. The
magistrate's work is secret in the first stage, while he or she is acting on
behalf of the state.

Asked how long Sharon would have to serve in jail if found guilty, Verhaeghe
cited the Rwandan war criminals recently sentenced in Belgium to a 15-year-
term, saying they will actually serve five or six years.

[Gość: Zbyszek]

Oczywiscie, ze prasa izraelska bedzie bronila Sharona. Czy spodziewal sie pan czegos innego? I tu
wylazi cala manipulacja prawem jak np.:

"Two additional considerations make it unlikely that Verhaeghe's mission will
succeed, said Lapidot. "Heads of states and prime ministers cannot be brought
to trial while serving, according to international law." "

Jak sie to ma w odniesieniu do np. Milosevica? Przeciez cena na jego glowe byla wyznaczona zanim
przestal byc glowa panstwa.

Jezeli w Izraelu jest demokracja to dlaczego panstwowa TV zdecydowala aby audycji nie
transmitowac?

" Israel's state-owned television decided not to air a BBC documentary discussing
whether Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is indictable for war crimes, an official
said today."

Izraelska komisja uznala Sharona odpowiedzialnym za dopuszczenie do masakry i musial sie podac
do dymisji.

'An Israeli judicial commission of inquiry ruled that Sharon, who was Israel's
defense minister at the time, should have foreseen the risk involved in sending
the Christian Phalangist militia into the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps.

The commission held Sharon indirectly responsible for the massacre, and he
resigned from his post."

Sam przyznaj, ze programy sa odgornie cenzurowane. Pomimo, ze naczelnik wydzialu wiadomosci
telewizyjnych, Rafik Halabi, chcial wyemitowac program BBC to Rada Nadzorcza kontrolujaca kanal
Pierwszy nie dopuscila do transmisji.

"Israel TV's Channel One bought the broadcast rights for the documentary. The
head of the TV's news department, Rafik Halabi, said in a radio interview the
program was of considerable public interest.

But the Israel Broadcasting Authority, which controls Channel One, overruled
Halabi's proposal to air the documentary.

The decision was taken by IBA director Uri Porat, IBA spokesman Yuval Ganor
said. He refused to state the grounds for Porat's decision.

I jeszcze jedno. BBC jest krytykowane przez jedna z izraelskich gazet za to, ze wyciagnela sprawe
sprzed 19 lat i naglasnia ja wlasnie teraz, gdy nie przypadkowo do belgijskiego sadu wplynela
sprawa przeciwko Sharonowi, wniesiona przez tych co przezyli masakre.

" (June 20, Ma'ariv)
Ma'ariv, in its second editorial, avers that "Only complete
sickos or certified Ariel Sharon-haters took seriously the BBC
personnel's naive explanations vis-a-vis their attempt to justify
why they produced an 'investigative piece' now on the Sabra and
Shatila massacre from 19 years ago," and says that the
"manipulative" Panorama program brought no new information to
light. The editors believe that Panorama's "goal was to cast
accusations at Sharon on the assumption that the media effect
would spur further moves," and believes the fact that massacre
survivors opened legal proceedings against Prime Minister Sharon
in a Belgian court the same day was hardly a coincidence. "

A co mozna powiedziec o panu Grossie, ktory wyciagnal sprawe masakry w Jedwabnym, ktora miala
miejsce 60 lat temu. I jego ksiazka rowniez nie wniosla nic nowego do naszej wiedzy o tamtych
wydarzeniach. Tez nie wydaje sie aby aktywnosc bylej "pierwszej damy" pani senator, Hillary Clinton i
jej nowojorskich sponsorow byla przypadkowa w tym samym czasie.

Dziekuje za ciekawe informacje. Sam czytam czasem jedynie Jerusalem Post, ale mnie zbytnio
denerwuje,

[Gość: Luki]

Ano, dziekuje za odpowiedz. Poza jpost dostepna jest jeszcze angielska
wersja dziennika Ha'aretz: http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng

A poniewaz wlasnie dostalem skrot dzisiejszego artykulu z gazety Ma'ariv,
wiec pozwole sobie jeszcze i jego skopiowac.

pozdrowienia, Luki


(Ma'ariv, June 21)
Ma'ariv, in its second editorial, regrets that the government did
not launch "a pre-emptive strike" against the BBC's recent
Panorama program about Prime Minister Sharon's alleged criminal
culpability vis-a-vis the Sabra and Shatila massacre. The editors
assert that "While there is only a slim chance that someone will
actually be put on trial, Panorama had an important lesson for
Israel: In the post-Rwanda and post-Bosnia international
environment, the possibility that a military officer, or even a
politician, will be tried for war crimes is no longer mainly
imaginary." The paper calls on the government to be aware that
"Strikes at civilians - whether deliberate or accidental - during
a military action are liable to end not only with a sharp UN
Security Council condemnation, but with legal proceedings against
those responsible as well."

[Gość: Zbyszek]

Jednym slowem brawo dla BBC. Ciekawe w jakim stopniu zmieni to postepowanie
armii izraelskiej w stosunku do ludnosci cywilnej Palestyny?

Pozdrawiam