That was an easy game!!?? Sociolinguistics

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

Polish media, recently bashed an American journalist who suppousedly
commited a major "faux pass" telling Polish tenis international
superstar, Agnieszka Radwanska that her last match with italian Sara
Errani "was an easy game".

www.sport.pl/tenis/1,107387,8067858,Wimbledon__Radwanska_w_1_8_finalu___bez_straty_seta.html


"Na pomeczową konferencję Radwańskiej przyszła amerykańska
dziennikarka " Newsweeka", która pisze artykuł o polskim tenisie. I
od razu popełniła duże faux pas, bo powiedziała do Agnieszki, że "
mecz był łatwy". - Nie wszystkie mecze, które kończą się wynikiem
6:3, 6:1 są łatwe. Ten akurat był bardzo zacięty i wyrównany -
skarciła ją Agnieszka. Ale skarciła kulturalnie, z uśmiechem na
ustach."

And there we have something that is called sociolinguistics.
American journalist actually gave Agnieszka a compliment, sugesting
that she "easy beat" italian player, meaning that Agnieszka skills
and form was so great that she had no problem beating opponent,
despite the tought game :)

Fact is that Poles and some other nations with similar tough
neigbourhood, love to bask in a self pitty and feel better in the
role of underdogs, when things are tought it seems normal to them,
maybe because of the historical experiences.

Even if they win they love to reminisce how tought it was to
achieve, instead of having this ignorant winner attitude that fits
the occasion, that is so synonimous with American, British, German
(anglo-saxon way).

This one was the best example how different cultures thing
differently about a seemingly a same thing.

Sociolinguistics?

[jeanie_mccake]

That's nothing to do with sociolinguistics, Waldek, you clearly know
as much about linguistics as you do about life in Poland.

get a hobby... Pani Janino Szkockie Ciastko

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

jeanie_mccake napisała:

> That's nothing to do with sociolinguistics, Waldek, you clearly
> know as much about linguistics as you do about life in Poland.

That is like you were saying; "Waldek, you are totally wrong stating
that Warsaw is the capital of Poland, you can not be right (because
I am Scottish) and it is my job to be right. Warsaw is the capital
of Poland only if I Jannie McCake said it, it would be right :)

Sociolinguistics according do wikipedia.org
Sociolinguistics is the study of the effect of any and all aspects
of society, including cultural norms, expectations, and context, on
the way language is used, and the effects of language use on
society.
It also studies how language varieties differ between groups
separated by certain social variables, e.g., ethnicity,
religion, status, gender, level of education, age, etc., and how
creation and adherence to these rules is used to categorize
individuals in social or socioeconomic classes. As the usage of a
language varies from place to place (dialect), language usage varies
among social classes, and it is these sociolects that
sociolinguistics studies.

[jeanie_mccake]

Sociolinguistics is the study of the social aspects of language, or
use of language in social contexts. Using loaded vocabulary to
express attitude is more a question of semantics.
I'm a linguist, so I know about these things, whereas you're just a
gobshite who gets his information about linguistics, Britain,
Poland, etc from the Internet.
I have hobbies and interests, so I can write about things I know
about, but your only hobby seems to be inventing nonsensical
theories and then arguing with them. It keeps your fingers out of
your nose, I suppose.

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

jeanie_mccake napisała:

> Sociolinguistics is the study of the social aspects of language,
> or use of language in social contexts. Using loaded vocabulary to
> express attitude is more a question of semantics.

you conveniently skipped the national ethnicity and culture. English
language differs depending on who is using it, thereas english
spoken by Indian person might be quite different then the one spoken
by educated American or Brit. Sociolinguistics is not only about
variation withing one culture, or a country its international,
global.

> I'm a linguist, so I know about these things,

I am also certified interpretor of English and Polish languages. I
was getting paid for doing this for many years. Please understand
that you are not the only person who knows stuff or has diplomas.



> you're just a gobshite who gets his information about linguistics,
> Britain, Poland, etc from the Internet.

I was born and lived in Poland for over 19 years. Went to school
there, and I was not locked in the basement you know... :) It
doesn't take to be an English, or Scottish linguist to be aware of
world around us...

You can go on and keep up your appearances, but to me you are just
ordinary person who is just extremally stucked up, big headed Brit
thinking that she is better because she was born on the island that
looks like the witch flying on the broomstick :)

[jeanie_mccake]

polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:


> I was born and lived in Poland for over 19 years. Went to school
> there, and I was not locked in the basement you know... :)

I was born in a hospital, but that doesn't make me an expert on
medicine.
Poland has changed a lot since you were a teenager.

It
> doesn't take to be an English, or Scottish linguist to be aware of
> world around us...

I never said you were unaware of the world around you, just that the
world around you is not Poland, it's America.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.
You're happiest arguing with yourself anyway - telling people "you
think this and you're wrong" without properly reading what people
actually write. Or all your absurd threads in the Społeczeństwo
forum about "Poland doesn't have to be like this!", where people who
live in Poland explain that Poland isn't like that at all, and you
ignore them and carry on ranting against your own fantasies.

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

jeanie_mccake napisała:

> I was born in a hospital, but that doesn't make me an expert on
> medicine.

But you did not live in a hospital for 19 years, did you? :)
Many Brits and Americans travel around the world, often live in the
foreign countries for few months and they tell people back home in
UK that they are fluenst speakers of foreighn languages.
Many so called British experts/professionals say that are fluent
speakers, while they only know 500 words or so chinese, russian,
arabic, spanish, japanese, polish.

I met few english teachers in Osaka Japan; Brits, Australian, Irish
they comunicated in english and knew few words in Japanese, but they
always bragged about being bilingual :)

> I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.

Then why did you post the response, on my thread? You do you really
believe that you have some kind of authority here on gazeta forums?
Those are the popular forums fore everyone to post their opinions
and share their knowlege and experiences.

I know there's discussion forums for experts or schollars of all
types so maybe you should go there and noone without diploma in
linguistics will "waste your time" or get into your way.

[jeanie_mccake]

As I said, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you, although
I'm almost tempted to ask why you started a thread on the "Ask an
Englishman" forum which isn't a question and has got nothing to do
with England or Britain.

[Gość: Steve]

I am not in any way a linguist, but I am interested in the way language affects and is affected by attitudes based on my own observations of Poland and England. Whilst there may be some cultural relevance of the term 'an easy win', in this case I must agree with Jeanie that it is a linguistic issue. The reader/translator at sport.pl has quite simply insufficient knowledge of English to understand what it means. For me, the social relevance is the willingness of Polish people to complain publicly about something spoken in a language they don't really really understand. Not a problem in journalism, where getting an interesting story is more important than accuracy. It is rather sadder when the Polish Ambassador in the US routinely complains about newspaper articles about the Polish concentration camps (ie in Poland) set up by the Germans in World War 2.

PPS, were you really a certified interpreter? Who gave you the certificate? I quite admired your courage in writing so much here even though you didn't seem to know English very well.

Polish runner is first so that means Brit wins!

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

Gość portalu: Steve napisał(a):

> I am not in any way a linguist, but I am interested in the way
> language affects and is affected by attitudes based on my own
> observations of Poland and England. Whilst there may be some
> cultural relevance of the term 'an easy win', in th
> is case I must agree with Jeanie that it is a linguistic issue.
> The reader/translator at sport.pl has quite simply insufficient
> knowledge of English to understand what it means. For me, the
> social relevance is the willingness of Polish people to complain
> publicly about something spoken in a language they don't real
> ly really understand.

Above you speak about linguistics and... social aspects of the story
cited...yet you say that "you agree with Jannie". That's like
saying; "Polish runner crossed the finish line first, so the
Scottish runner who crossed the finish line second wins! Don't ask
why!" :)

British islander's ego is so high up there that they will ignore any
attempt of bringing their feet back on earth.

> Whilst there may be some cultural relevance of the term 'an easy
> win', in this case I must agree with Jeanie that it is a
> linguistic issue.

because.... she is British? :)

> The reader/translator at sport.pl has quite simply insufficient
> knowledge of English to unders tand what it means.

or rather thinks Polish. It's coalled sociolinguistics! Often times
native english speakers interpret Polish event, with the bias
towards Poland/ Eastern Europe.

For example; American ABC television chanal on the Polish Airforce
one crash, said concluded that "the Polish pilots struggled to
communicate with Russian control tower in russian". Huh?
If it was the American Airforce 1 landing in Smolensk, they would
say; "Russians didn't speak english".

This is called BIAS! In american/british mind bigger country is
always right, always on the top, no matter what. So there's no sense
in arguing with brits or americans, they will always say they are
right, even if they are dead wrong, because the inflated ego doesn't
allow them to say the otherwise.


> PPS, were you really a certified interpreter? Who gave you the
> certificate?

Appearantly not some conceited Brit/English/Scottish english
language interpretor testing body... I was actually tested and
certified on Polish language, while serving in the US military, and
always got a hightest level. Thank God thinking like an englishman
was not required! :)

Oh, and just an information for you Steve, there's an english spoken
by British, American english, and an "international" english
language spoken by the rest of the world, those to whom english is a
second language.

Please remember, that just because you are speaking english lanugage
as a native, it doesn't mean your way of constructing sencences
is "the only way". Try to have a conversation with and Indian
person, or someone from Africa or east Asia who despite being fluent
will not follow your english norm of building sentences, then you
will learn what the socio-linguistics are :)

To put it simply just because I'm using english words, doesn't mean
I have to think english or american. English lanugage is used
worldwide, I am always amaized how the Japanese or French people
always construct sentences in english and think almost same way
Poles do.


English people are just another story, your anglo-saxon culture is
just so big headed that you rarely will agree with anyone who is not
english.

[glasscraft]

Crumbs, you do like the sound of your own voice, don't you?

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

glasscraft napisała:

> Crumbs, you do like the sound of your own voice, don't you?

Ineed, just like Brits and Americans love the sound of their own
voice :) Are you suggesting that as a Pole (eastern-european) I
have no right to be self confident?

I know that Brits especially love to give eveybody else this
patronising attitude, and if someone from what they
consider "inferior part of Europe" speaks out with confidence, they
can't just take it :)

To bad for you buddy world is changing, British Empire is long gone,
and now you are just part of the "old Europe", the New Europe is not
turning its head back to look a the old decadent Europe.

[glasscraft]

polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:

> To bad for you buddy world is changing, British Empire is long
gone, and now you are just part of the "old Europe", the New Europe
is not turning its head back to look a the old decadent Europe.

I am shaking in my boot!!!

P.S. I am not your buddy, mate.

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

> I am shaking in my boot!!!
> P.S. I am not your buddy, mate.

and likewise I am not your mate, Glasscraft.

There again comes your superiority complex, relax! Your keeping up
appearances means nothing to me and a lot of people in New Europe,
you are who you are, not what you want others to think you are.

[glasscraft]

You don't have a clue, do you...

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

glasscraft napisała:

> You don't have a clue, do you...

clue about what? Is there anything substantial in all this
Britishness, or is it all just one big inflated lie.

[Gość: Pat McCat]

Britishness? What has an American sports journalist got to do with
Britishness?

communicating non english ideas...in english :)

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

Gość portalu: Steve napisał(a):

> The reader/translator at sport.pl has quite simply insufficient
> knowledge of English to understand what it means. For me, the
> social relevance is the willingness of Polish people to complain
> publicly about something spoken in a language they don't real
> ly really understand.

"Easy win" in polish means "latwe zwyciestwo" (easy game/latwy
mecz). Latwe zwyciestwo- means that winning that game has not taken
much effort of the one who has won. So in the Agnieszka Radwanska
last match it was NOT the case, it was a tough game. Tough is tough,
difficult is difficult.

The problem is that Poles and most other nations in the world take
the words literaly, "easy win" to them means that it was easy to win.

While for native english speakers "Easy win" is what it sounds,
rather is the way to bragg, and create the impression that despite
opponent being very strong, it was still "easy to beat" him, because
in english folks mind they are better then the rest.

Winning for Brits and Americans is a "piece of cace" even if... it
is hard as hell :)


SOCIOLINGUISTICS!

If you sweat, take a over an hour to beat the opponent in the tenis
match, it is always a tough game. Agnieszka Radwanska did not win
easly, it took an effort for her


Learn to think polish, then you will not argue anymore, and please
remember just because a Japanese, French or Polish person writes in
english doesn't mean he or she is required to think english.

I as many people around the world use english language to
communicate their thoughts and ideas, they do not follow english way
of thinking, so obviously their sentences are going to be consider
bit odd for a native english speakers.

Remember what is important to you, might be of little interest for a
Pole, you want to stress your english pride and importance at any
possibility, for Poles this is non issue :) No wonder we have a
disagreements.

[Gość: xarxa]

I agree with Jeanie too, not because she's British or Scottish, but
because she's right - you clearly don't know what you're talking
about.
And your English might be good enough for the US military (czy
jesteś obywatelem amerykańskim czy najemnikiem?) or for trying to
start a pointless argument about nothing, but I wouldn't go around
boasting about my linguistic skills if I were you.

[polska_potega_swiatowa]

uhmm...I am not going to answer to personal questions (and quite
rude for that matter) from someone who I do not know. Frankly it's
non of your business.

Secondly, this is a popular forum, while Jonathan might enjoy the
status of an english "expert" here since it is his forum, but
everyone else her is just a regular Joe and Jane :)

Relax people, english/polish language discussions should be fun,
anyone should be able to express their thoughts and opinions on the
language and culture, which both are tightly interconnected.

The very reason why I keep bringing up the sociolinguistics ( the
cultural aspects of language) is because this seems to be ignored
here. One you understand the orgin and culture of the english
speaker it is easer to understand his or her english. I do not need
to tell you that the english spoken by an educated Indian, French or
Japanesse person is going to differ considerably from one spoken by
the native english speaker.

The problem is that some of (excuse me for my french) the hard
headed people on this forum like Steve and Janie McCupcake believe
that english language is only what and how they speak and understand
it.

[Gość: Steve]

Absolutely excellent English, PPS. I apologise, but I think you can understand why your normal posts confused me.

I have known many hundreds of people who use differing versions of English across Britain and Europe and am closely acquainted, since I live in Poland, with Polish-English. This, to me, is the English spoken by Polish people in Poland, who have normally learnt it from Polish people who have never been to England. This has sometimes been developed by living in England, but the basic language perspective remains that from Poland. All of this is reasonable and I have no problem with it. I live with it everyday and greatly admire the capabilities of all such people.

What surprises me is that quite a few Polish-English speakers seem to be completely unaware of what seems obvious to you and me. They believe that they speak perfect English and are quick to take offence when there is a simple misunderstanding based on the two different English versions. I was completely shocked the first time I was given an angry condemnation that I did not understand English when I asked what some gobbledegook sentence meant. ( I normally asked for the Polish version of a translation as the English often didn't make sense, but didn't have it in this case.) People read things, which, from the general context, clearly implies there is a misunderstanding. However, they believe their English is so perfect that they have understood it correctly. They completely ignore the person they criticise when he/she explains that it means something completely different in the 'native' version of English.

In this case, 'an easy win' means a win achieved without any problems. It does not imply that there was no effort, which would be described, with mild exaggeration, as an 'effortless win'. It is sometimes combined with 'he/she hardly raised a sweat' emphasising the point. It is easy to understand why someone will get it wrong if they don't know the language of the commentator well. I can only sympathise and wish that my Polish was good enough only to make mistakes with difficult terminology. However, I hope I never get to the position of absurd arrogance where I assume I know what a Polish person means better than he does.

If you think this is an attack against Polish people, I can only reassure you that I think the only reason why English people would not make the same mistake is that we are normally so appalling ignorant of foreign languages that we know we couldn't possibly have understood it properly.

Finally, I completely agree that I am not an expert and make no assumpotion I am right (a regular Joe and Jane as you put it). I do find that these English/Polish language discussions are fun, again as you put it, and I would not wish it to be any different. This hard-headed person can only say back to you, "Hey brother, relax. Toke a smoke and chill, man. (US 1960s/70s west coast white hip dialect or something like that.)