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High-tech w Stanach. Do Indii. Do Rosji itd.

IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 14.07.03, 22:10
Czy wiecie dokąd dzwonicie telefonując na n.p. "tech support" AOL, Dell-a i
podobnych? No właśnie. Do Indii - gdzie za cenę 1-go z USA mają conajmniej
10 tamtych.

http://www.itaa.org/workforce/studies/03execsumm.pdf
http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/01/news/economy/jobless_offshore/
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/books_swa2002_swa2002intro

"Job Exports May Imperil U.S. Programmers.
Sun Jul 13, 2:16 PM ET Technology - AP
By RACHEL KONRAD, AP Business Writer

SAN JOSE, Calif. - Peter Kerrigan encouraged friends to move to Silicon
Valley throughout the 1980s and '90s, wooing them with tales of lucrative
jobs in a burgeoning industry.


But he lost his network engineering job at a major telecommunications
company in August 2001 and remains unemployed. Now 43, the veteran
programmer is urging his 18-year-old nephew to stay in suburban Chicago and
is discouraging him from pursuing degrees in computer science or
engineering.


"I told him, 'Unless you're planning to do this as a path to technical
sales, don't do it,'" said Kerrigan, who lives in Oakland. "He won't be able
to have a career designing and building stuff because all those jobs have
moved to India."


Like many unemployed programmers, Kerrigan blames the sour labor market on
offshore outsourcing — the migration of tech jobs to relatively low-paid
contractors or locally hired employees in India, China, Russia and other
developing countries.


The hemorrhaging of tens of thousands of technology jobs in recent years to
cheaper workers abroad is already a fact of life — as inevitable, U.S.
executives say, as the 1980s migration of Rust Belt manufacturing jobs to
Southeast Asia and Latin America.


But a new wave of technology outsourcing — involving tasks that involve
greater skills — could be cutting to the industry's bone, threatening to
prolong the three-year U.S. economic downturn.


Some who oppose the trend, which such industry stalwarts as Hewlett-Packard,
IBM, Dell and Microsoft are embracing, believe it could even usher in the
end of American domination in technology.


"We're giving countries like China and India the support they need to build
up their technology industries, and the result could disadvantage us in the
long run," said Phil Friedman, an electrical engineer and chief executive of
New York-based Computer Generated Solutions, a 1,200-employee software
company that targets the apparel industry.


"We outsourced electronics manufacturing. We're closing steel mills. Every
week, 400,000 people file for new unemployment claims," said Friedman, a 54-
year-old Ukrainian native who immigrated in 1976. "At the same time, we're
shipping tech jobs offshore — it's a shortsighted approach and cheats the
American work force."


Cost-conscious executives have been shifting lower-level tech jobs in data
entry and systems support abroad to cheaper labor markets for more than a
decade. But now they are exporting highly paid, highly skilled positions in
software development — jobs that have been considered intrinsic to Silicon
Valley and tech hubs such as Seattle; Boston; and Austin, Texas.


Critics say it's the equivalent of exporting not just the automobile
industry's assembly line jobs — but the core engineering and car design
jobs, too.

Roughly 27,000 technology jobs moved overseas in 2000, according to a
November study by Forrester Research. It predicts that number will mushroom
to 472,000 by 2015 if companies continue to farm out computer work at
today's frenzied pace.

According to Forrester, companies in the United States and Europe will spend
28 percent of their information technology budgets on overseas work in the
next two years.

Boeing, Dell and Motorola have opened software development centers in
Russia. Intel employs 400 full-time Russian software research engineers and
nearly 200 others in marketing and sales, wireless Internet access and modem
projects.

Santa Clara-based Intel entered the Russian market with a small contract
project three years ago. But within months, the world's largest chip maker
hired all the programmers who write compiler software to optimize the
microprocessors' performance, and opened the Russia Software Development
Center in Nizhny Novgorod.

"We intend to invest in the fastest-growing markets, and those are India,
Russia and China — that's the long-term plan," Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy
said.

Microsoft is adding software development jobs at its India Development
Center in Hyderabad, opened in 1999 to create versions of Windows for giant
corporate computers. Bill Gates (news - web sites) said late last year that
the expansion was part of an estimated $400 million in corporate investments
in the subcontinent.

On its corporate Web site, Microsoft lists dozens of Hyderabad openings,
many requiring five years of experience, fluency in multiple computer
languages, and college degrees in computer science — far from the hourly
telemarketer jobs that financial services and insurance companies exported
to the Philippines and elsewhere in the early '90s.

Some say sending those jobs abroad may cause American tech workers' wages to
stagnate.

According to the nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute, non-inflation-
adjusted wages for tech workers grew 1.7 percent between the fourth quarter
of 2001 and the fourth quarter of 2002 — not enough to keep up with the
period's inflation rate of 2.2 percent.

The average computer programmer in India costs $20 per hour in wages and
benefits, compared to $65 per hour for an American with a comparable degree
and experience, according to consulting firm Cap Gemini Ernst & Young.

But executives say outsourcing offers advantages beyond wage differences.

Jean-Marc Hauducoeur, a senior vice president at Cincinnati-based human
resources consulting firm Convergys, said his 47,000-employee company will
employ 6,000 customer service representatives and network engineers in India
by year's end.

Convergys' average technical employee in India stays on the job for nearly
three years — more than double the U.S. average, saving tens of thousands of
dollars in recruitment and training per employee per year, he said.

"People in India are very ambitious and very well-educated, but they're also
ready to invest in a company, and they have less of a tendency to move out
of the company," Hauducoeur said.

Many U.S. corporate executives say they simply can't afford to overlook
foreign computer workers — especially in India, which produces roughly
350,000 college engineering graduates annually.

Others say the genius of American enterprise (news - web sites) is its
leaders' knack for envisioning the next big thing — and workers' ability to
redefine job roles and retrain. Americans pioneering developments in
nanotechnology and biotech will have far more job security than simple
programmers, they argue.

Bob Pryor, who heads the outsourcing practice of Cap Gemini Ernst & Young,
said it's "naive" to think outsourcing software jobs could ruin America's
tech dominance.

"The reality is that we live in a global economy and we compete against
global players. We need to look at where we have strategic advantage —
whether it's resources or skills," Pryor said. "It frees up people and
dollars to do much more value-added strategic things for clients."

Marcus Courtney, a former contract worker for Microsoft and Adobe Systems
and president of the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, said many
tech workers understand and even endorse free trade and globalization.

They even enjoy living on the cutting edge — taking courses in advanced
computer languages, getting experience in a variet
Obserwuj wątek
    • na_imie_mi_mirko Re: High-tech w Stanach. Do Indii. Do Rosji itd. 14.07.03, 22:28
      Eureka!
      • nazi_pig Re: High-tech w Stanach. Do Indii. Do Rosji itd. 14.07.03, 22:38
        Ja sie zastanawiam czy to jest glupota decydentow ktora powoduje takie
        zachowanie i czy jest to przemyslane do konca?

        No, fajno, Chiny czy jakis tam inny za kilka lat beda mogly zrobic to czy
        tamto, czy to JEST BEZPIECZNE??? Czy tez, nie martwmy sie teraz, potem bedziemy
        sobie tym glowy zaprzatac...
        • na_imie_mi_mirko Re: High-tech w Stanach. Do Indii. Do Rosji itd. 14.07.03, 22:39
          Market decides.
          • Gość: Mirko Re: High-tech rikszą. IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 14.07.03, 22:54
            na_imie_mi_mirko napisał:

            > Market decides.

            Starsznie jakis mądry facet jesteś chyba?

            Bardzo ładne (prosto brzmi) wytłumaczenie.
            Ale nie żaden tam market, tylko goście którzy decydują i n.p. mogą sobie
            wypłacić 1000 razy tyle ile wypłacają Tobie.

            U mnie w f-mie ostatnio zakontraktowali robotę f-mie z Atlanty, która dała
            najlepszą cenę. Problem w tym, że dopiero później okazało się że jej
            programiści są w Płd Afryce, tak że owszem, możesz wysłać e-maila w piątek
            rano ale odpowiedzi nie będzie aż do poniedziałku. Itd.

            Co innego szyć koszule w Chinach a co innego rzeźbić całe nowe oprogramowanie
            bankowe w C++ w stanie Maharasztra. Owszem, podstawą ruchu jest to że jest to
            cholernie pracochłonne więc tam te tłumy sniadych rączek zrobią to taniej. Tzn
            taniej to wygląda.

            Do tego równania policz sobie jeszcze niewiadomą/zmienną czyli n.p. straty
            jakie mogą wyniknąć kiedy jeden z tych Pakistańczyków lub muzułmańskich
            Hindusów wsadzi w ten kod coś czego KOMPLETNIE nie zamawiałeś. Lub coś
            znacznie, znacznie gorszego.

            • nazi_pig Re: High-tech rikszą. 14.07.03, 23:42
              tak, to 'market decides' przypomina popiskiwanie jakis tam wyswiechtanego
              frazesu malego chlopczyka...

              Ciekawe jak dlugo tak mozna udawac ze produkcja hamburgerow jest glownycm
              przemyslem i na kogo te rakiety orbitalne?
            • na_imie_mi_mirko Re: High-tech rikszą. 15.07.03, 03:19
              Nie bardzo rozumiem o co ci chodzi kolego. Proste prawa ekonomii sa zwykle
              najtrudniejsze do zrozumienia w przypadku kiedy chodzi o wlasny byt. Mimo
              wszystkich frazesow o jakie jestem oskarzany, prosze spojrzec w tyl i popatrzec
              w historie.
              Wydaje mi sie, ze jestes tzw. programerem tzn czlowiekiem dla ktorego walka o
              wlasny byt w wieku, ze tak powiem, podeszlym staje sie celem samym w sobie. Ja
              mam 29 lat i wiele do zrobienia. Good luck! It's a jungle out there and you are
              an antelope (if you know this business paraphrase).
              • Gość: zgredzik Re: High-tech rikszą. IP: *.tor.primus.ca 15.07.03, 04:51
                na_imie_mi_mirko napisał:

                > Nie bardzo rozumiem o co ci chodzi kolego. Proste prawa ekonomii sa zwykle
                > najtrudniejsze do zrozumienia w przypadku kiedy chodzi o wlasny byt. Mimo
                > wszystkich frazesow o jakie jestem oskarzany, prosze spojrzec w tyl i
                popatrzec
                >
                > w historie.
                > Wydaje mi sie, ze jestes tzw. programerem tzn czlowiekiem dla ktorego walka
                o
                > wlasny byt w wieku, ze tak powiem, podeszlym staje sie celem samym w sobie.
                Ja
                > mam 29 lat i wiele do zrobienia. Good luck! It's a jungle out there and you
                are
                >
                > an antelope (if you know this business paraphrase).

                Masz juz 29 lat? Za 11 juz 40! To prawie jutro! Przypomniesz sobie moje slowa
                szybciej niz ci sie zdaje, hehehe/
              • Gość: Mirko Re: High-tech rikszą. IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 15.07.03, 05:06
                na_imie_mi_mirko napisał:

                > Wydaje mi sie, ze jestes tzw. programerem tzn czlowiekiem dla ktorego walka
                o
                > wlasny byt w wieku, ze tak powiem, podeszlym staje sie celem samym w sobie.
                Ja
                > mam 29 lat i wiele do zrobienia. Good luck! It's a jungle out there and you
                are
                >
                > an antelope (if you know this business paraphrase).

                Masz rzeczywiście sporo do nadrobienia. Głównie zresztą w wychowaniu na co
                może już być za późno bo jesteś już stary chłop.
                Pierwsza pochodna z własnej bezczelności rzuciła Ci się na krzywą myślenia i
                ją przegina aż trzaśnie.

                A o mnie się spoko nie martw. U mnie jest kul.
    • Gość: Katarzyna Re: High-tech w Stanach. Do Indii. Do Rosji itd. IP: *.sympatico.ca 15.07.03, 04:58
      Ten "krewniak" namawia chlopaka, zeby zostal w Szikago bedac w
      Oakland, hehe ... a o zimach pomyslal? Bez sensu!
    • nazi_pig do pana na imie_mi_mirko: chcesz byc zlosliwy? 15.07.03, 05:42
      lecz sie ch. bo jestes p..ty.

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