Invertion with NEGATIE ADVERBIALS - HELP !!!

[free123]

Mam takie zdnie:
"The door could not be open without using force".
Transformacja zaczyna się od "Not until ...".

Czy dobrze jest to zrobione:
"Not until using force could the door be open" ???

[jan.kulczyk]

Not until FORCE WAS USED would the door open/could the door be open.

[ms.jones]

Not until force was used would the door open.
but
Not until force was used could the door be openED.

[free123]

"Not until force was used could the door be openED".

Dlaczego openED ???
Teraz już nic nie wiem :(
Normalnie byłoby -> "the door could be open" a nie "opened" so "could the door
be open".
Chyba, że mi się już mózg zlasował całkiem ;)
Please, rsvp

[ms.jones]

the door was locked
they couldn't open the door
force had to be used before the door could be opened (opened in the past)
only when the force was used could the door be opened
it could be opened and closed without a problem

-Knock, knock.
-Come in, the door's open. (now)

To tylko moja interpretacja :)

[ms.jones]

the door was open - tez jest ok
moze tu wychodzi roznica miedzy 'otwarte' - szeroko otwarte drzwi i
otwierane - bo byly zamkniete.
:?

[jan.kulczyk]

Hehe ale namieszałem, sorry, zgubiła się końcóweczka.

Open to forma przymiotnikowa odczasownikowa. The door is open/was open/will be open oznacza, że drzwi SĄ/BYŁY/BĘDĄ OTWARTE. Określa to pewien zastany stan rzeczy (hehe przepraszam). Natomiast the door was/is being/will be opened określa samą czynność w trakcie jej wykonywania czyli: "drzwi są/byly/będą otwierane lub zostaną/zostały otwarte/otworzą się" hehehe

Sorry raz jeszcze <lol>

[kylie1]

> Not until FORCE WAS USED would the door open/could the door be OPENED.


"Open" is a transitive verb here (not an adj.) and the verb takes on a past
participle form. :)

[ms.jones]

2xFAQ :)) (please pronounce correctly)
1. what is forma przymiotnikowa odczasownikowa in English?
2. in 'the door could be opened' what is 'opened' and why?

[axxolotl]

> 1. what is forma przymiotnikowa odczasownikowa in English?
a jak to w jezyku polskim wyglada??

> 2. in 'the door could be opened' what is 'opened' and why?
It's a past participle of the verb "open" and in this phrase it is the part of
the passive form "could be opened" and that's why it's not "open".

"open" is used as an adjective to describe something (well, a noun)
"opened" is used to describe an action.

Right? Wrong?

[ms.jones]

so is it transitive or intransitive (if it applies to past participle forms)

[kylie1]

It's a transitive verb ( I mentioned that before).
Intransitive verb functions as a main verb in the sentence:

The door opened suddenly.

:)

[ms.jones]

> "open" is used as an adjective to describe something (well, a noun)
> "opened" is used to describe an action. (could be opened)
Right.
And 'opened' in'opened door' is a past participle adjective like bored child/
excited child/ confused child/ bitten boy etc. Just like Kylie said. And I
suppose Kulczyk after he'd confused everyone.

[kylie1]

> 1. what is forma przymiotnikowa odczasownikowa?

How is it in English?

> 2. in 'the door could be opened' what is 'opened' and why?

Have a look at this:

"They could open the door"..."open" functions as an active verb here. This is
the kind of verb we use when we say what people and things do.
When we say what happens to people/things, we use a passive verb form. :)

Passive verb form for the above sentence is:
'the door could be opened'.

A passive verb form is called a Past Participle ( to be quite correct it's a
passive past participle).


now, the word "open" can function as an adjective as well.
Ex. The store is open between 9-5


:)

[ms.jones]

'they could open the door': open=transitive verb, right?
'the door could be opened': opened= past participle, what about the
transitive /intransitive label?

[kylie1]

It's still transative. The main verb in your sentence is not open but "they
COUL". Could is the main verb here. :)))

[kylie1]

Could is a modal auxiliary verb to be exact but it's also the main verb at the
same time.:)

[ms.jones]

is OPENED anything apart from being past participle/passive voice?

[kylie1]

Don't think so.
My message was a reply to Mr.JK and you were right were you corrected his
original sentence. My message wasn't a reply to any of your messages. I am not
sure why but when I respond to a particular post, the message almost always
shows under someone else's reply...???


Forgot to mention important thing (duh) that intransitive verbs don't take
objects and therefore can't be made into passive tense.

[ms.jones]

Mine jump about too.
I'm beginning to appreciate the beauty of przymiotnika odczasownikowego. It's
an adjective easily confused with a verb :)
'Opened door' is a normal passive whatsit ie basically a verb (form) easily
confused with an adjective.
It makes sense what you said about transitive/intransitive verbs I just
couldn't put it all together.

She stood in the open door. Stala w otwartych drzwiach - przymiotnik
She stood in the opened door. Stala w 'otworzonych drzwiach' - czasownik.
'Normalnie' powiedzialoby sie 'stood in the open door'.
These things take time...
:)

[kylie1]

Ok, now I know what you're talking about!!!

Yes, it's an adjectival phrase called a "past participle adjective". It
modifies the noun - the "door" in this case.:)))

Sorry I didn't get it right away :))

[ms.jones]

You've been very patient. I sometimes confuse people :)
I had no idea such things (past participle adjectives) existed.

[kylie1]

> You've been very patient. I sometimes confuse people :)
> I had no idea such things (past participle adjectives) existed.


My pleaseure. It's been so long since I taught. Old age....not as fast as I
used to be. :))

[kylie1]

it's inversion :)

[free123]

ZLASOWAŁ mi się MÓZG całkiem ;))))))))

Z rozmowy akademickiej o zdaniu ... - przyjmuję "could the door be opened".

Tnx.

[kylie1]

Yes, that's correct, Free123 :)